|
Post by Mighty Jack on Dec 27, 2007 22:30:33 GMT -5
Right, BathTub, but it still doesn't sound... natural coming from them. I mean, if that's just genuinely where their senses of humor are now, then so be it. The corners of the internet that I'm native to are really out-there and filled with memes and bizarre, twisted humor and to see these guys throw out seemingly forced references to the latest popular internet jokes... I'm just not feeling it. Sorry, it's hard to explain and I don't feel that I just did so properly. I do give the guys credit for embracing the internet pretty well. It hasn't gone unnoticed. And McCallum, the Winehouse reference bothered me, too. It also sounded a bit forced. I could be wrong. Now wait a minute. Why? Why can't they make an Amy Winehouse or any other current reference? Is it because they are older and you don't feel they are as familiar with todays pop culture (Therefor, making the inclusion sound, as you said, forced?)? Because they are all around the same age as I and beleive me, I know who Amy is, I know her problems. And by gum, even a guy in his late 40s like me is up on a lot of the internet lingo etc. I thought the Winehouse joke was hysterical, natural and even being an old fart.... I got it. As to Joel's brilliance. He's done comedy before and after Mike, Trace or Frank were around, and he was quite funny. In "Star Wait" he and Josh were slinging riffs like pros. With MST they all contributed to the humor, but yes I beleive that Joel the riffer is as advertised. One of the best there is.
|
|
|
Post by vanhagar3000 on Dec 27, 2007 23:09:09 GMT -5
I honestly am beginning to think certain writers brought certain aspects to the table. Everyone always praises Mike the most, but on his own he kinda flounders (IMO). I'm just holding hope that Joel's that little intagable that could put everything back together. Remember this whole entire riffing thing is essentially his baby. I've always felt that Joel was better at creating and imagining, than actually doing the riffing. He had a lot of great ideas and did a lot of great things, but I've never been convinced that he was the driving comedic force behind the show. I've always believed that Mike and Trace (possibly Frank, too) were the series' key players when it came to actually putting funny dialogue on the screen, personally. But that's just me. Could be wrong. I wouldn't say Trace was a key behind writing. His were well chosen, but few and far between. Watch the KTMAs. It's usually Josh with the most, Joel with the second most, and Trace with the least. Trace however, was the franchise when it actually came to performing and my absolute favorite in theater person of everyone. It's kinda hard though to really know who did what. Mary Jo did a couple of the vulgar (and forced upon) riffs in the movie, along with a Hepburn joke in TFOS. Paul did a lot of fart jokes I guess, and now seems to be the man who spearheaded the host segments that were all setup with one punchline. Mike was more the intellectual from what I understand and was by Kevin's account the best riffer during season one. Frank was called a movie and TV expert in the ACEG. Kevin seems to have a fairly good knowledge of film himself, but only up to a certain year that I can't pinpoint. Joel, Trace, and Josh you can differentiate in the KTMA theater, they seemed to do a lot more of the surrealist humor, (much like Joel's standup act) and just one liners. Joel though was a definate pop cutlure junkie if you've seen his standup act which have some obscure references here and there. Plus he must have been a b-movie fan to have come up with the show. I'm sure though much of it overlapped as they all had to have similar interest or never would have worked together that well. It's hard to say who exactly contributed what and what amount. I would say Mike did the most, hence his head writer promotion and it matches with Kevin Murphy's praise. Then between Josh, Joel, and Trace it goes in that order based on what I've seen in the KTMA episodes. How those four compare to the rest of the crew (and the three to Mike for that matter) is really hard to tell. It's all just hearsay and speculation.
|
|
|
Post by Hugh Beaumont on Dec 28, 2007 0:05:20 GMT -5
I'm a huge Trace geek, you have to realize. One reason the Sci-Fi episodes are so hard for me to sit through (generally) is that Trace is not in them. As Dr. Forrester and Crow, he was such a driving force behind the funny of the show. Even if he wasn't contributing as many riffs, he had (IMO) the best grasp on the comedy. His delivery was always spot-on and his presence always made things funnier and more enjoyable.
Honestly, I think it's easiest to tell what a person brought to the show when that person finally leaves the show. For example, when Frank left, the show seemed slightly less charmingly quirky... or something. I can't really explain it well. When Trace left, I found that a lot of the sharp humor and clever delivery also left. When Joel left, so did the "gentler" tone of the episodes. (In that case, it was a good thing.)
|
|
|
Post by vanhagar3000 on Dec 28, 2007 15:53:35 GMT -5
I think you have a point there, but I think it's a combination of Frank and Trace leaving. What I think it was is when Frank left in season six he took a ton of pop culture knowledge with him. Add in they also had a ton of "fish in the barrel" movies during that period. Trace though still kept providing a few gutbusters and pop culture type stuff. Plus they were refreshed from not having to take orders from Universal.
Trace leaving in season seven meant gone were those gutbusters and few pop culture riffs. Frank had been gone for a year now too, and it started showing more. But the most important thing is Trace's delivery. Trace could take certain riffs and turn them into gold. No one could do impressions like Trace. Trace could tell a bad joke, but you'd still laugh at the impression or voice. Plus Bill had a bit of a hard time getting started.
Joel leaving did mean a more raunchy tone. Personally I think was a bad thing, I watched the show as a kid, so it's kinda like turning Pee Wee Herman into a masterbater....okay, bad example. That's all tastes. Which again is like the new pop culture stuff. I like it, that's my tastes.
You have a point about contributions, but it also depends on opinion. In my opinion the Mike episodes went down in quality compared to Joel's. In my season five reviews, most of Mike's episodes were ***1/2 and **** range, Joel was averaging just below ***** for me. Joel leaving though, I think was the first big chuck of lost pop culture references. Not as big impact as the one-two punch of Trace and Frank leaving eventually would have.
|
|
|
Post by Captain Hygiene on Dec 28, 2007 15:59:31 GMT -5
I wouldn't say Trace was a key behind writing. His were well chosen, but few and far between. Watch the KTMAs. It's usually Josh with the most, Joel with the second most, and Trace with the least. Trace however, was the franchise when it actually came to performing and my absolute favorite in theater person of everyone. Doesn't that assume that his off-the-cuff remarks translate into his scripted comments though? I've always felt that Mike and Trace were the best, and I assumed that Trace contributed quite a lot based on how the show changed after season 7. Just because Trace was the slowest at ad-libbing doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't contribute as much once they started scripting everything. I could be wrong, but I've always felt he contributed quite a bit to the writing.
|
|
|
Post by Hugh Beaumont on Dec 28, 2007 17:00:00 GMT -5
Joel leaving did mean a more raunchy tone. Personally I think was a bad thing, I watched the show as a kid, so it's kinda like turning Pee Wee Herman into a masturbater... okay, bad example. That's all tastes. Which again is like the new pop culture stuff. I like it, that's my tastes. You have a point about contributions, but it also depends on opinion. In my opinion the Mike episodes went down in quality compared to Joel's. In my season five reviews, most of Mike's episodes were ***1/2 and **** range, Joel was averaging just below ***** for me. Joel leaving though, I think was the first big chuck of lost pop culture references. Not as big impact as the one-two punch of Trace and Frank leaving eventually would have. Now we can get back to that familiar disagreement territory. MST didn't need to be raunchier, per se, but when Joel left, the riffer got sharper. Fewer punches were pulled, and that's when the show is at its funniest, in my opinion. It was only in season five that Joel's riffing started feeling fresher, to me. Even then, his finest hour was in his last episode. (The riffing in Mitchell feels so much better than anything before it. It has the same effect that Manos had/has, like a giant step in the evolutionary process.) It's a pity Joel couldn't have stuck around a bit longer, given that. The sweet spot has always been seasons 5-7, for me. The show was never funnier than when Mike, Kevin, and Trace were riffing, in my opinion. They're all As and A+s. (I use letter grades, instead of stars or numbers.) Those are the episodes that I always go back to and drive into the ground until I'm sick of them - and then I go back to Joel. And periodically I'll go back and try to warm up to the Sci-Fi episodes. It never really works, but I'm actually about due to try again...
|
|
|
Post by pslowner on Dec 28, 2007 17:06:29 GMT -5
The fact that we have different combos of riffers on various seasons is what makes the show timeless. Everyone has a different favorite seasonal section of the show.
|
|
|
Post by Donna SadCat Lady on Dec 28, 2007 17:11:12 GMT -5
Plus, don't discount the input of Bridget Jones, Colleen Henjum, and other unsung off-camera folks.
|
|
|
Post by vanhagar3000 on Dec 28, 2007 21:35:13 GMT -5
Joel leaving did mean a more raunchy tone. Personally I think was a bad thing, I watched the show as a kid, so it's kinda like turning Pee Wee Herman into a masturbater... okay, bad example. That's all tastes. Which again is like the new pop culture stuff. I like it, that's my tastes. You have a point about contributions, but it also depends on opinion. In my opinion the Mike episodes went down in quality compared to Joel's. In my season five reviews, most of Mike's episodes were ***1/2 and **** range, Joel was averaging just below ***** for me. Joel leaving though, I think was the first big chuck of lost pop culture references. Not as big impact as the one-two punch of Trace and Frank leaving eventually would have. Now we can get back to that familiar disagreement territory. MST didn't need to be raunchier, per se, but when Joel left, the riffer got sharper. Fewer punches were pulled, and that's when the show is at its funniest, in my opinion. It was only in season five that Joel's riffing started feeling fresher, to me. Even then, his finest hour was in his last episode. (The riffing in Mitchell feels so much better than anything before it. It has the same effect that Manos had/has, like a giant step in the evolutionary process.) It's a pity Joel couldn't have stuck around a bit longer, given that. The sweet spot has always been seasons 5-7, for me. The show was never funnier than when Mike, Kevin, and Trace were riffing, in my opinion. They're all As and A+s. (I use letter grades, instead of stars or numbers.) Those are the episodes that I always go back to and drive into the ground until I'm sick of them - and then I go back to Joel. And periodically I'll go back and try to warm up to the Sci-Fi episodes. It never really works, but I'm actually about due to try again... I've never really seen anything to beleive the riffs got sharper. Mike's delivery in the first few shows was a little hit and miss, actually, but he got it super fast for a guy who probably hadn't been performing for a few months I don't get what exactly you mean by punches being pulled. While Joel would admonish Crow, remember the riffs all still got into the show. The only thing it really was is added dialouge. Plus Joel would usually let Servo get away with it, and he always threw some in himself. I don't think Manos or Mitchell was an evolutionary steps, just real good episodes. The biggest ones for Joel were 101, 106, 201, 301, 309, and 423. 101 obviously was being fully scripted and everything else. 106 is the changing of how the show was formatted and the riffing started to get sharper. 201 was the changes with cast and the riffs got better. 301 is when the riffs reached their zenith. 309 is when pop culture humor started to be more and more prevelant. Bride of the Monster is when they started coming down from their pop culture mania which had reached insane levels of obscurity and quantity in season four.
|
|
|
Post by Hugh Beaumont on Dec 30, 2007 4:44:53 GMT -5
Yeah, we're way off-course from one another, now. Season four and earlier, it's all very bland. It's like, for those first four-or-so seasons, they were swinging with big, puffy boxing gloves. Every so often they'd land some sharp hits (Cave Dwellers, Manos, Girl In Lovers Lane, to name a few), but they were mostly just landing soft ones. That's not a bad thing, necessarily, but that's not the top of their game, in my opinion. Once Mike joined, the gloves started to come off. By six, they were hitting hard. Then, in season eight, they started missing punches. A lot. Okay, enough boxing metaphors. As for a really quick, 4am list of "huge" (in my opinion) episodes: 101, 301, 321-322, 424, 509, 512, 609-614, most of season seven, 820, and 904. I suppose that, in some ways, that's almost moreso me listing my favorite episodes... but those are just the episodes where I feel they really hit their stride and showed their true potential. Moments of growth, and moments where we saw a little bit of riffing perfection. Thank you, won't you?
|
|
|
Post by hopesfall on Dec 31, 2007 11:27:12 GMT -5
All I can say is... Amy who?
|
|
|
Post by Hugh Beaumont on Dec 31, 2007 21:27:46 GMT -5
Some drunk British bird. No one of consequence.
|
|
|
Post by mrtorso on Dec 31, 2007 21:58:26 GMT -5
All I can say is... Amy who? Enjoy that horror show..
|
|
|
Post by yarg on Dec 31, 2007 22:55:46 GMT -5
I've only listened to like six or seven of these rifftrax episodes but I also think they're usually quite a bit weaker than the Mike-era MST3K episodes. Sometimes their delivery is kind of a forced sarcasm that doesn't feel as natural as in MST3K. I think it has to do with the fact that they're short a few writers and on a much lower budget, plus they're making so many of them! There are some things that Rifftrax can't help that hurt it like the absence of anything silhouettes or anything visual.
I don't mean to be too critical because they're still entertaining and a good deal. Especially the rifftraxes of things that are already funny like Troll 2.
In my opinion there was a pretty gradual rise in quality and consistency starting with the beginning of Season 2 and the first really brilliant episodes without much filler started in Season 3 with Cave Dwellers, Pod People, and It Conquered the World. They got just about as good as they ever got by the end of Season 4 with Manos and Bride of the Monster. But I definitely don't think the move to Sci-Fi hurt them because there's a lot of episodes from then where they're on fire, like Leech Woman, The Undead and Riding With Death. Hell, all the episodes from Season 9 are funny except Projected Man. In Season 10 I felt they picked some movies they probably shouldn't have done like Diabolik, and they might have gotten a little weak when they knew they were getting cancelled.
|
|
|
Post by BathTub on Jan 1, 2008 5:44:44 GMT -5
I've only listened to like six or seven of these rifftrax episodes but I also think they're usually quite a bit weaker than the Mike-era MST3K episodes. Sometimes their delivery is kind of a forced sarcasm that doesn't feel as natural as in MST3K. I think it has to do with the fact that they're short a few writers and on a much lower budget, plus they're making so many of them! There are some things that Rifftrax can't help that hurt it like the absence of anything silhouettes or anything visual. Except as repeated a few times now there has always been more writers than riffers. There is no fixed schedule for releases, people who keep track will notice that it varies from 1 to 6 weeks (take now for instance, looking at a month or so). I hope people realise that when it's a week between releases that it doesn't mean they are churning them out one a week, but rather than Bill and Kevin flew out to CA and recorded a few (usually 3) over a couple of days and then they are released over a few weeks. They could release them further apart, but once it's recorded there's not much point sitting on it, might as well sell it. During which of course they've been working on the next one. Take early last year for example, one recording session in early January was released over a month, Dare Devil, Battlefield Earth (gap for Troll 2) and then Star Trek VI. So it was 4-5 weeks before Kevin came back to record Aeon Flux. Saying the budget is smaller is a tad silly isn't it? Of course it's smaller. That comes from the fact that they don't need to build sets, rent a studio, negotiate film rights, hire a Film Crew ( ;D sorry!) and equipment, and manufacture and ship DVD's. Not because they don't pay for writers/staff. "Historical Data courtesy of RiffTraxFan dot Com! RiffTraxFan dot Com, Home of Gammer's Riffaholic Reviews and Waffles! Visit RiffTraxFan dot Com Today"
|
|