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Post by Crowfan on Sept 7, 2009 14:48:31 GMT -5
As most of you know, I'm both a huge football fan and a dog lover and owner. What Vick did was reprehensible...BUT he did serve his time and I doubt that he would be stupid enough to harm an animal ever again. His every move will be scrutinized and if he screws up again, I imagine that Roger Godell would throw him out for good. I sincerely hope that Vick will work with the humane society and help stop dog fighting.
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Post by Mod City on Sept 7, 2009 22:42:23 GMT -5
I'm a second chance kind of guy, so I went that route.
Vick would have to be off-the-scale stupid to do anything even remotely resembling it again, so his dog fighting days are probably over. I know he's planning to do some work in speaking out against animal cruelty, but it will be interesting to see if he sticks with it. And he did do his time.
It's an ugly thing he was involved with. He'll carry that around for the rest of his career, if not life, and the public will be ready to call him out if he screws up.
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Post by bmt277 on Sept 13, 2009 16:20:00 GMT -5
i cant forgive him because he knew what he was doing with those dogs, and had he not have gotten caught i bet he would still be doing it. he will always seem like a thug to me
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Post by Bix Dugan on Sept 14, 2009 9:38:15 GMT -5
Since the Eagle's starting QB went down yesterday, we may be seeing Vick sooner than later...
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Post by crowschmo on Sept 14, 2009 17:07:24 GMT -5
Release the hounds.
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Post by jkazoolien on Sept 17, 2009 13:08:11 GMT -5
As terrible as dog fighting is, why are we so quick to put it on a higher plane than human murder, rape, or child molestation? Remember I think it was Tom the Dancing Bug talked about this, and how perhaps people would be more legitimately angered toward actual horrid crimes if animal cruelty was involved in some way: "What, the Keating 5 and S&L scandal is ultimately going to cost taxpayers trillions of dollars? Ah, what you gonna do...WHAT? They were drowning kittens? BURN THEM!" "AIG used their bailout money for gigantic executive bonuses? Well, it's our own fault for trusting them with the dough...WHAT? They ran a cockfighting ring? THERE WILL BE BLOOD!" "Obviously, those woman should of known better than to go up to Kobe Bryant's or Mike Tyson's rooms by themselves...WHAT? Kobe made her watch him strangle a puppy, and Mike was stepping on hamsters? NO PUNISHMENT IS TOO SEVERE!" Honestly, I'm not excusing what Vick did, but I'm not about to put him on the same plane as a child molester or rapist, crimes our society seems more willing to forgive if you're famous enough. Vick should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, and be forced to take sensitivity training, but then, he should be considered having paid his debt to society. He should certainly be kept an eye on to assure he doesn't start doing this crap again, but as long as he doesn't do it again, we should be willing to accept his apologies and reformation as sincere.
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Post by crowschmo on Sept 18, 2009 21:27:07 GMT -5
Serial killers usually start off killing animals. Why - because they can usually get away with it, easier access, - practice? Not all people who are cruel to animals will "graduate" to people, but torturing animals is a sign someone's a sociopath. These people are not "normal". They're sick. I don't think a slap on the wrist is enough.
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Post by jkazoolien on Sept 22, 2009 0:11:10 GMT -5
Serial killers usually start off killing animals. Why - because they can usually get away with it, easier access, - practice? Not all people who are cruel to animals will "graduate" to people, but torturing animals is a sign someone's a sociopath. These people are not "normal". They're sick. I don't think a slap on the wrist is enough. A lot of serial killers also eat hamburgers. Why? Because they taste good. We have McDonald's, Burger King, White Castle, COUNTLESS places where these killers can get their hamburgers how they want, when they want it. I'm not saying everyone who eats hamburgers will "graduate" to serial murder, but eating hamburgers is a sign that someone may be a sociopath. As for dogfighters, I agree. They ARE sick, and a slap on the wrist isn't good enough. But to say they deserve to be villainized on the same level as a murderer, rapist, or child molester only makes murder, rape, and child molestation seem like "not that big a deal" or "on equal footing with" animal cruelty. Again, I'm NOT saying that animal cruelty isn't sick or should not go unpunished, I'm just fascinated by how unbelievably up-in-arms we get about it compared to crimes that should be given far greater outcries. If people got this upset over murders, rapes, and child molestations, I would probably lay off it, but for crying out loud people, get your priorities in check!
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Post by Skyroniter on Sept 22, 2009 17:15:51 GMT -5
Since the Eagle's starting QB went down yesterday, we may be seeing Vick sooner than later... I heard Vick was going to start next week.
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Post by Crowfan on Sept 22, 2009 18:33:24 GMT -5
Serial killers usually start off killing animals. Why - because they can usually get away with it, easier access, - practice? Not all people who are cruel to animals will "graduate" to people, but torturing animals is a sign someone's a sociopath. These people are not "normal". They're sick. I don't think a slap on the wrist is enough. A lot of serial killers also eat hamburgers. Why? Because they taste good. We have McDonald's, Burger King, White Castle, COUNTLESS places where these killers can get their hamburgers how they want, when they want it. I'm not saying everyone who eats hamburgers will "graduate" to serial murder, but eating hamburgers is a sign that someone may be a sociopath. As for dogfighters, I agree. They ARE sick, and a slap on the wrist isn't good enough. But to say they deserve to be villainized on the same level as a murderer, rapist, or child molester only makes murder, rape, and child molestation seem like "not that big a deal" or "on equal footing with" animal cruelty. Again, I'm NOT saying that animal cruelty isn't sick or should not go unpunished, I'm just fascinated by how unbelievably up-in-arms we get about it compared to crimes that should be given far greater outcries. If people got this upset over murders, rapes, and child molestations, I would probably lay off it, but for crying out loud people, get your priorities in check! That's a great point. When I was in England in 2007, a discussion about the Queen's Household Cavalry led to what happened to the IRA? It turned out that the IRA had planted bombs on the parade route taken by the Queen's Guards. When pictures appeared of the bombing, you know what offended the British public? Dead and wounded horses. That's what brought the IRA to the bargaining table. I mean, seeing dead and wounded horses is horrible, but what about the men? They were and are someone's sons, husbands, brothers, you get the idea. Comparing animal cruelty to the murder of human beings is really more like apples and oranges.
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Post by callipygias on Sept 22, 2009 20:08:14 GMT -5
What's a good point? The ridiculous hamburger analogy? Or is it that it would be worse to pick up a human by its foot and slam it to the ground, smashing all it's bones until it's dead, or that it would be worse to electrocute a human to death for fun and entertainment for a crowd? I doubt anyone would argue that it wouldn't be worse.
I'd say it's more like an irrelevant point. If he had done any of those things to humans he would have gotten the death penalty.
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Post by StreetDreamer83 on Sept 22, 2009 21:11:08 GMT -5
I liken Vick's situation to a child that's not taught the difference between what's right and what's wrong. It's likely that Vick didn't grow up in an environment where dogs were looked at as human companions, otherwise he likely wouldn't have been involved in dogfighting in the first place. It's probable that Vick had been going to dogfights for a good part of his life growing up, and watching a couple dogs fight was equivilent to a football game. Obviously there came a point where he had to realize that what he was involved in was morally and ethically wrong, not to mention against the law. I'm not trying to pass the buck here, but if you grow up doing something wrong, you're probably going to keep doing it until you're taught a lesson.
The people up on Mount Pious need to take a step down and try to turn a terribly negative situation into a positive. Vick payed his debt to society in a number of ways, whether people agree or disagree that he payed enough is completely irrelevant. That he can play professional football is also irrelevant. The fact is that, in the eyes of some in the NFL, he has the ability and talent to play at that level. It's not fair but it's the way life works.
Matt
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Post by jkazoolien on Sept 23, 2009 21:30:43 GMT -5
What's a good point? The ridiculous hamburger analogy? Or is it that it would be worse to pick up a human by its foot and slam it to the ground, smashing all it's bones until it's dead, or that it would be worse to electrocute a human to death for fun and entertainment for a crowd? I doubt anyone would argue that it wouldn't be worse. I'd say it's more like an irrelevant point. If he had done any of those things to humans he would have gotten the death penalty. Yes, the hamburger analogy WAS ridiculous, because I was trying to point out that just because A can lead to B, it doesn't mean that A always leads to B. I don't know how many ways I can say this. I AGREE with everybody that what Vick did was sick, depraved, and deserved a harsher punishment than he received! BUT...I wish people would get every bit as much upset when such atrocities occur to human beings. My friend told me this story of a history class he took in college. They were being shown a film of the atrocities that Cambodia's Pol Pot committed against his own people. There were scenes of people being shot at point-blank range, piles of dead bodies being burned and tossed around like cord wood, women and children being forced into the street at gunpoint while the kids were forced to watch the mothers be raped and killed....not a peep out of the class. BUT...a soldier, in an effort to get an unruly ox out of his way, poked the creature in the ribs with the butt of his gun. Only then was there any audible gasps or words of outrage from the class! At this, the professor demanded the lights be brought up, went to the front of the class, and said "For the past 20 minutes, you saw half a million men, women, and children being treated like animals, and you make not a peep. But when an animal is hurt, THEN you protest? You sicken me. Class dismissed." Now, those students had every right to be disgusted and protest about the injured ox, but the professor is right in condemning their cavalier attitude toward the rest of it. If the students had been horrified throughout, I would be able to sympathize. But what does it say about us as a society when we put the rights of animals above the rights of human beings? Again, I'm NOT saying animals are beneath us, I abhor what Vick did just as much as everyone else here. But if people were to show even half this much indignation toward human atrocities, the world would be a much, much, better place.
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Post by crowschmo on Oct 1, 2009 16:33:36 GMT -5
^^^^Yes, I agree with that. For some reason, we get kind of stoic when it comes to these vicious crimes against people. Maybe because it happens so MUCH, throughout history, and still today, that if we had appropriate feelings for ALL these people, as we do for people we know, we just couldn't take it and would be in a constant state of outrage, despair and grief - and we are not equipped to deal with all that, so something gets "turned off" in some people because it just gets overwhelming. I'll try to keep this brief, because, after all, this is supposed to be a sports thread, and all this is a subject for a different matter, this is a whole other thread that would never end. (Also - maybe some people think of animals as more "innocent" though most of them would probably kill us for survival if they had to.) You also made a good point about the meat industry - animals get just as much tortured there as they do in a fighting ring. All we humans who eat meat who don't hunt for it or fish for it ourselves are guilty of contributing to it whether we like to think about it or not. You hear some horror stories about the psychos who get jobs there, as well. I don't see the majority of people changing their eating habits en masse anytime soon, but there must be a more humane way of going about it. Just either being a vegetarian, or eating as little meat as possible, and when you do, hunt or fish for it yourself when you can, or get the free range stuff, so hopefully the animals are at least not tortured beforehand, but - who the hell knows? I guess this isn't as brief as I'd liked, we should get back to the sports thing on here, but it's hard to put all this in only a few words. No need to choose one evil over another. We can get just as outraged over crimes against any living being. What I was trying to say originally is, how did Vick really "pay his debt" to society? By costing the court system money, then spending time in jail - room and board at the cost of taxpayers? How does that pay a debt? It takes him out of commission for a while, sure. But I just thought BEFORE he was allowed to go back to his life as usual, he should have had to work with animals to see that they aren't just things. It wouldn't have cost the taxpayers, it would have helped some animals, and it might have helped HIM be a different person. (Did he do anything else besides go to jail? I didn't hear). THEN he could go back to his old job. What I'm saying (in a big, long comment, I know) is this society and some cultures just let people get away with this stuff - I also know it's hard to police EVERYBODY on the planet who does this sort of thing - without much repercussions. People who do these sort of things are ACTING OUT some dark aspect of themselves, and who knows what people with that much rage and/or indifference inside them are capable of, and that's not good for OUR species. I don't know if I can visit this thread again, even though I'm the one who started it. It's just too damned depressing. We're a hard species to like. Back to sports. Play ball.
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Post by Mod City on Oct 1, 2009 17:12:39 GMT -5
You also made a good point about the meat industry - animals get just as much tortured there as they do in a fighting ring. All we humans who eat meat who don't hunt for it or fish for it ourselves are guilty of contributing to it whether we like to think about it or not. You hear some horror stories about the psychos who get jobs there, as well. I don't see the majority of people changing their eating habits en masse anytime soon, but there must be a more humane way of going about it. Just either being a vegetarian, or eating as little meat as possible, and when you do, hunt or fish for it yourself when you can, or get the free range stuff, so hopefully the animals are at least not tortured beforehand, but - who the hell knows? You're right, this is in danger of flying off the sports track. While I wish no unnecessary pain on any living thing, I'm not sure why I should concern myself with what constitutes torture of an animal that is going to be eaten anyway when the government can't figure out what constitutes torture of foreign combatants. If we can't figure that out, the chickens on their way to KFC don't have a chance. And frankly, I think we should focus on the human side of that problem before the non-human. You could say that about any criminal who's gone through the American judicial system. He paid his debt because he was convicted, sentenced and then served his sentence per the judge's instructions. I'm not sure why he should be held to a different standard because of the nature of his crime. Sometimes. We're certainly hard to understand
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