Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
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Post by Torgo on May 10, 2018 21:21:15 GMT -5
Ever since MonsterX had her sex change and threw me for a loop when she stopped referring to herself as a "he" without confirming it for a few days I'd say it's safer to imagine this place as gender neutral.
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47
Nanite
I'm weird — which results in creativity!
Posts: 48
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Post by 47 on Aug 28, 2018 13:30:36 GMT -5
There's only so much self-aggrandizement and stupidity that someone can take from blogs and message boards and other internet cliques before it becomes unbearable. I'm guessing Jonah has reached his limit for the next few years. Or, maybe he's like Tolkien, and he takes every criticism too personally. If I were you, I'd really be more hurt if he'd said something like, oh, That make you feel better?
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Post by crowschmo on Aug 29, 2018 11:09:10 GMT -5
And Jonah's soul-crushing response was: "we don’t read that stuff. Sorry."He could have been having us on, ya know. Maybe they do READ it, they just don't over-think every single piece of advice and just go with their guts on things.
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Post by Afgncaap5 on Aug 29, 2018 13:20:33 GMT -5
And Jonah's soul-crushing response was: "we don’t read that stuff. Sorry."He could have been having us on, ya know. Maybe they do READ it, they just don't over-think every single piece of advice and just go with their guts on things. Could be. Having said that, I know that a lot of creative types have a "don't read the reviews" policy, both to avoid the negative criticisms and also to not get an overexaggerated sense of what's good, and were I in their position I'd probably extend that to the forums as well. I've heard some authors say that they'll go to Amazon and read, like, the three star reviews exclusively because they'll be people who have problems and will say what they think they are, or the people who'll read a single one star review just for fun, but in general we don't have "stars" on our comments here so that's not an option.
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Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
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Post by Torgo on Aug 29, 2018 15:41:32 GMT -5
He could have been having us on, ya know. Maybe they do READ it, they just don't over-think every single piece of advice and just go with their guts on things. Could be. Having said that, I know that a lot of creative types have a "don't read the reviews" policy, both to avoid the negative criticisms and also to not get an overexaggerated sense of what's good, and were I in their position I'd probably extend that to the forums as well. I've heard some authors say that they'll go to Amazon and read, like, the three star reviews exclusively because they'll be people who have problems and will say what they think they are, or the people who'll read a single one star review just for fun, but in general we don't have "stars" on our comments here so that's not an option. It's really a problem with what film criticism has evolved into. It's become more of a method of "how can I insult this movie?" instead of a constructive criticism of how it can be better. But I guess negativity is "funny" because it gives us a sense of superiority over what we watch, though why we need it I'm not certain. We've really become a culture of "Best Movie Ever" and "Worst Movie Ever." If one can discuss in the grey area in between then an actual conversation can happen, but if you only deal in extremes and absolutes then I don't find it's worth the time put into it to even try. But alas, most fans think that in order to be "true fans" you need to be willing to be outraged over something petty.
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47
Nanite
I'm weird — which results in creativity!
Posts: 48
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Post by 47 on Aug 29, 2018 17:16:04 GMT -5
We need it, because if we don't have a sense of superiority over what we watch, then being forced to watch bad movies will eventually be the end of our sanity — and quite possibly our lives. We can't let the Mads win, now, can we?
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Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
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Posts: 15,420
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Post by Torgo on Aug 29, 2018 17:50:05 GMT -5
I've paid to watch five Transformers movies directed by Michael Bay at the theater (though admittedly the last few at a steep discount). I'd say it's safe to say my sanity flew out the window a long time ago.
The Mads already rule me, just like they do with Carl.
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Post by BoB3K on Aug 29, 2018 23:02:23 GMT -5
I've paid to watch five Transformers movies directed by Michael Bay at the theater
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Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
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Post by Torgo on Aug 30, 2018 0:16:15 GMT -5
Hey, I got my Dinobots. The price might have been high but I got them.
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Post by Afgncaap5 on Sept 1, 2018 12:45:20 GMT -5
We've really become a culture of "Best Movie Ever" and "Worst Movie Ever." If one can discuss in the grey area in between then an actual conversation can happen, but if you only deal in extremes and absolutes then I don't find it's worth the time put into it to even try. But alas, most fans think that in order to be "true fans" you need to be willing to be outraged over something petty. This is actually a problem I've had with film criticism for ages, and I always love to see it brought up. There's a weird pressure to not let things just be "okay". I mean, I'd rather watch something good than something okay, but I think there's value in saying that something's just okay instead of having to take a side between "really good" and "awful".
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Post by someoneinatree on Sept 1, 2018 13:26:19 GMT -5
We've really become a culture of "Best Movie Ever" and "Worst Movie Ever." If one can discuss in the grey area in between then an actual conversation can happen, but if you only deal in extremes and absolutes then I don't find it's worth the time put into it to even try. But alas, most fans think that in order to be "true fans" you need to be willing to be outraged over something petty. This is actually a problem I've had with film criticism for ages, and I always love to see it brought up. There's a weird pressure to not let things just be "okay". I mean, I'd rather watch something good than something okay, but I think there's value in saying that something's just okay instead of having to take a side between "really good" and "awful". I fear that MST3K might have inadvertently contributed to this mindset. During the Q&A session for the Rifftrax Reunion show, one of the reporters asked the cast how do they feel knowing that they heavily influenced film criticism discourse on the Internet. And even though this reporter was meaning to flatter them with this question, the panel seemed uncomfortable with such a declaration. They explained that they never saw what they did as legitimate film criticism, that they were doing a comedy show. But if you look online, there are people who look at Channel Awesome and its former contributors as critics and their output as reviews even though they are basically like (lesser) MST3K episodes, a variety show built on bad movies or other media.
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Torgo
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Post by Torgo on Sept 1, 2018 18:30:21 GMT -5
This is actually a problem I've had with film criticism for ages, and I always love to see it brought up. There's a weird pressure to not let things just be "okay". I mean, I'd rather watch something good than something okay, but I think there's value in saying that something's just okay instead of having to take a side between "really good" and "awful". I fear that MST3K might have inadvertently contributed to this mindset. During the Q&A session for the Rifftrax Reunion show, one of the reporters asked the cast how do they feel knowing that they heavily influenced film criticism discourse on the Internet. And even though this reporter was meaning to flatter them with this question, the panel seemed uncomfortable with such a declaration. They explained that they never saw what they did as legitimate film criticism, that they were doing a comedy show. But if you look online, there are people who look at Channel Awesome and its former contributors as critics and their output as reviews even though they are basically like (lesser) MST3K episodes, a variety show built on bad movies or other media. While I feel there were various factors at play in creating this subculture, but MST was definitely a factor. One merely needs to go back to the infancy of IMDB and remember the types of reviews the films featured on the show attracted. Many of which were knee-jerk one star ratings with the review saying something akin to "It was on MST3K. Nuff said." Nostalgia Critic is actually a great example of this because Doug Walker has actually listed MST as an influence of his, though if I remember correctly he said it was probably subliminal and he wasn't really thinking of the show when he created his character. What Walker does is a very base form of criticism and the majority of his show is just pointing smart-alack remarks at the movie, though he tends to take things out of context and conveniently forget portions of the movie in order to emphasize his gag, then he just posts a general opinion at the end that tells us barely anything. It obviously works for him though, but I have to be honest the Nostalgia "Critic" is barely a critic at all. I agree with the cast. I've never thought of MST as film criticism but rather a next step in the horror movie host format. The movie is their special guest star and they're using it as the straight man for their comedy. The use of the term "bad movie" is only a reflection of it being something forgotten and/or with a low budget in comparison to the stuff Hollywood pumps out currently. The only hitch in this is that the original MST got more aggressive toward the movies as it went on, which is probably the result of several things. First was when Joel and Frank left the affection for these types of films seemed to dwindle, and you can definitely tell in the Shout Factory special features that these two definitely had the most love for the types of movies they did. Second is that Kevin is a self-proclaimed cinema snob and he hates movies more often than he loves them. And finally was Bill, who adopted a more aggressive riffing persona because it worked for his voice, while Mike and Kevin adapted to it and even followed suit. But like I said, there are a lot of things to consider about how the internet culture we're talking about came about. Another influence was that film criticism in general was in a fairly snarky place around the time the net started blossoming. While I don't want to accuse critics of being disingenuous with their opinion, but I do think they had a tendency to over-emphasize what they hated more than what they love. A lot of them were trying to come up with their latest "oh snap!" blurb to gain more readers/viewers and not really giving the movie they were viewing a fair shake ::cough::Rex Reed::cough::. Then you have Siskel and Ebert, who in general actually tended to be pretty fair and balanced, if opinionated, but their "thumbs up/down" system somewhat boiled things down to "it's either good or its bad." Ebert was actually a bit critical of the thumb rating, saying he would have preferred if they had actually listened to the review, but people seemed to like the basic "Should I see this movie or not?" rating system. At the same time you have nerd culture starting to peek out from behind the curtain. On the big screen the Batman films sold a lot of tickets and Kevin Smith was developing his underground audience. But these were people who were used to repressing their inner love for certain kinds of movies and TV shows because people who were like-minded weren't common and they had been dismissed if they had ever brought it up. Suddenly you have this tool that can connect you to like-minded individuals all over the world, and while that's very inviting it's also a double edged sword. You're so used to being dismissed for what you like that sometimes criticism of it comes off as an attack and you feel the need to attack back, then things escalate, and soon you're dealing with extremes of "I LOVE IT AND YOU SUCK FOR HATING IT!" and "IT'S STUPID AND YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY A MORON FOR LIKING IT!" That sort of became the backbone of internet nerd culture, where you had to be aggressive for your opinion to mean something, but it's always seemed weird to me. I'm someone who appreciates the film Spider-Man 3 though there are plenty who like to dog it. Once back in 2007 I remember stating that the scene where Sandman pulls himself together for the first time was one of the most beautiful scenes I had seen all year (and I still stand by that statement), but the response I got back was "THAT SCENE WAS TERRIBLE BECAUSE IT WAS IN SPIDER-MAN 3, AND YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE FOR LIKING IT!" Well, they sure gave me food for thought, I guess. And in the end that's how you get things like the Joel vs. Mike flamewar or even the attempt at breaking a schism between people who like the MST reboot against those who hate it. But there's an inherent flaw in the idea of not using extremes, because in general if something is just "fine" then most people in general just can't work up any passion in saying anything about it. That means the people who loved it and the people who hated it will really be the only ones talking, because those in the middle probably don't really have an opinion and even if they did there is no guarantee that they would really have something to say other than something basic. There are plenty of people who's opinion is just basically "I liked it. It was funny." or "I didn't like it. It was dumb." and they'll just leave it at that. A lot of people beg them to explain, but the honest to god truth is they really don't have to. A lot of the time we just respond to something positively or negatively and we don't have a desire to critically think about why. Sometimes I feel it's best to just leave it at that. I really don't know if I digressed or not. That's a lot of rant, but yes I have certain opinions on the subject. Lol
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47
Nanite
I'm weird — which results in creativity!
Posts: 48
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Post by 47 on Sept 1, 2018 22:48:47 GMT -5
You mean ‘brokering a schism’? Or, was that one of those colloquial double negatives?
Anyway — and this is way off track — I agree: some of my favorite MST3k eps are those with movies that have a really deep story, but one that is hidden in layers of cheesy production. Like Overdrawn. See some of them in a certain emotionally vulnerable state of mind, and they can bring you to tears. The riffing adds frosting to the top which helps you chew through the distractingly unpleasant flavors. Heck, sometimes the amateur-ness even helps reveal the core of the characterizations in a way that movies which think too much of themselves miss with all their pomp and flashy ignorance. Furthermore, it can also add an extra layer that helps you see the people involved in making the thing as people behind the acting or lack thereof: Charles B Pierce is a decent documentarian — see the original Legend Of Boggy Creek. Spider Man 3 did that, too. Maybe it did some things wrong, but no worse than most other movies have done. Somewhere in there was a story about addiction and the brutal power that comes from greed unfettered by love.
Argh. I gotta move this to the topics for episode commentary.
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Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
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Post by Torgo on Sept 2, 2018 8:19:20 GMT -5
Don't not lecture me on no negative. My English are impeccable.
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Post by Who Let Servo Drive on Dec 16, 2018 17:11:59 GMT -5
There's only so much self-aggrandizement and stupidity that someone can take from blogs and message boards and other internet cliques before it becomes unbearable. I'm guessing Jonah has reached his limit for the next few years. I think you’re reading a lot into his reply that isn’t there. He didn’t say they hate the forums or couldn’t take them any more. He just said they don’t read them.
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