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Post by BoB3K on Jun 22, 2020 12:11:50 GMT -5
I've always loved season 2 AND season 1. I even love KTMA.
I think the second half of KTMA could stand on it's own as an alternate form of the show -- the 3 performers know what movie they're going to watch, and they even all go and watch it once on their own to become familiar with it, maybe even take some notes. Then, they come together and watch it for the first time as a group, and ad-lib, once all the way through, recording and puppeting to it of course. Then maybe go back for a second pass on any parts where there were big flubs or large empty spaces. ...or not. It's kind of the charm of knowing that it's 'live' unscripted.
There is a secondary requirement to this format in my opinion -- the movie has to be at least half-way watchable on its own. Which, is also why I think much of the second half of KTMA works. You've got movies like Hanger 18, The Last Chase, City on Fire, Superdome, Million Eyes of Su-Muru, which are all perfectly watchable, fun cheesy movies. I could watch any of those movies on its own. Having Josh, Trace, and Joel there is just a bonus. Plus, it's 'live' ad-lib. Josh would regularly crack Joel up, and often Josh and Trace would start trying to compete (usually lamely) for certain pun-worthy or other one-liner ready topics. It was fun. Throw a couple one-take host segments based on movie topics or random bits from their stand-up acts, and you're good to go.
So, that all sounds like a tangent, but if you look at it, I, a big MST3K and riffing fan, am saying that I actually prefer LESS jokes, writing, and polish, to more...
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Post by BoB3K on Jun 22, 2020 12:17:17 GMT -5
KTMA was 21 episodes. The Reboot was 20 episodes. To be fair though, in 1988 at KTMA, those guys were on their own and essentially inventing full-movie in-theater riffing from scratch. It really should take a modern riffing show much less time to gel now-a-days. For example, if I started up my "shipwrecked on an island with a VCR made of coconuts" premise I've mentioned on here before, now today, I would expect it to be running smoothly half-way through the first season, say around episode 6 or 7. And if it wasn't, I would begin to look for reasons -- in casting, in the writing room, in the movie choices, etc.
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Post by JLH on Jun 23, 2020 7:41:45 GMT -5
I echo so many here, but I will say one thing: Joel used to say the "right people will get it". The Netflix run feels like he abandoned that adage for "try to make everyone get it".
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Post by BoB3K on Jun 23, 2020 11:49:39 GMT -5
I echo so many here, but I will say one thing: Joel used to say the "right people will get it". The Netflix run feels like he abandoned that adage for "try to make everyone get it". I've actually always been on the fence about esoteric and deep-cut reference jokes. I mean, yes, it's always cool when you get one. I think I actually get most MST3K jokes nowadays because I'm a well-read (and tv/movie watched) 45 year old. It's actually interesting when I'm watching an old MST3K, and I get a joke, and then I immediately think, 'wow, there's no way I got that joke back in 98.' BUT, there is something to be said about making jokes that are just plain clever and funny. My favorite jokes are the ones that play off of and integrate into the movie. ("They TRIED to kill him with a forklift!" ... "Sleep!!" ... "I know.") But having said that, there still is a very real and definite difference between hackneyed broad comedy and clever but accessible comedy. And there's also the worst of both -- making broad, predictable, repetitive references. To veer the topic slightly but stay on riffing-- After watching 30 years of riffing, I (personally) have come to the conclusion that the worst riffing is when there is no feel of the riffers sitting with the movie, but that there is just X writer/comedians taking turns throwing out 'witty' one-liners they (or others) have written. I would rather have less funny, less sophisticated jokes, as long as it feels like the X riffers are all hanging with me, actually watching the movie, following along with the plot and characters, commenting on the plot and characters, building running gags, trying to out clever one another, etc. I think that RiffTrax has this problem sometimes. I think often, especially in recent years, you will get a RiffTrax, that just feels phoned in, sometimes almost literally, like the 3 guys have just come in to the recording booth (very possibly seperate booths), sat down, picked up the riff script and started tossing off their lines at the appropriate time codes. Then add in, that a large portion of those thrown out one-liners are tired jokes or lame dick jokes, and you have my overall luke-warm opinion of modern RiffTrax. Now, turn back to the MST3K reboot, and this is often how it felt-- Three comedians that were really more just actors that were firing off one-liners in time to the movie--lines written by a dozen people without any real voice.
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Post by crowschmo on Jun 23, 2020 14:06:27 GMT -5
^^^^^ Yeah, that's why I'm not crazy about most of the Rifftrax I've seen. (I do like some of them - the live ones, mostly). But they just KEEP TALKING. The jokes are no longer funny and it's more like they're talking for the sake of talking over the movie/short.
That was kind of like the new MST3K. Okay, we get you're going to be talking over the movie, but there's no need to overdo and be smug about everything. Just let there be humorous jokes that feel organic to what's going on onscreen, and make it feel like you're a bunch of friends having a good time watching a bad movie.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Jun 23, 2020 15:23:07 GMT -5
The best recent approximation to the correct riff-style of classic MST were those Gamera movie fan episodes put out by Brayton or whatever his name was. The sketches weren't great, but the riffing was spot-on in tone, volume and style.
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Post by BoB3K on Jun 23, 2020 15:28:58 GMT -5
I think QuipTrax is pretty darn good too and making fun clever riffs along with the movie.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Jun 23, 2020 15:34:21 GMT -5
It just goes to show that it isn't HARD to do. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Which makes nu-MST and some of the more recent Rifftrax's so weird.
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Post by mylungswereaching on Jun 23, 2020 15:47:02 GMT -5
I personally prefer the Rifftraxs with Bridget and Mary Jo better than the ones with Mike.
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Post by zombiewhacker on Jun 23, 2020 19:30:27 GMT -5
Well, I, for one, am a big Rifftrax fan who's sang their praises on these forums for years... and even I agree with most of your comments about the quality of their riffing lately.
As good as the writing has been, occassionally it does feel a little cut and pasted, and I suspect I know part of the reason why.
(I realize not everyone here is not a big Manos fan, but please bear with me here...)
There's a great bit at the end of that MST3K episode where two women are driving along in their car and we're being subjected to the same endless travel shots that we saw at the beginning of the movie...
... and suddenly out of nowhere Tom Servo bursts into this hilarious monologue where he's mimicking what he imagines the two mindless biddies must be prattling about as they're aimlessly roaming the backroads...
... turning what could have been two more minutes of torture into one of the funniest bits of the whole episode.
But how?! How was that even possible?!! That scene was giving them absolutely nothing to work with! Nothing!!! It was a boring montage of the same boring car moving through the same boring boonies shown from the same boring camera angles -- that's it!
I'll tell you how... because back then Joel and the Brains wouldn't let a scene like that defeat them. They dug in. They held on. Like a bloody Rocky Balboa climbing up from the canvass during the first Creed fight, the Brains were determined to pull out every stop to make that scene work... and somehow, bless their little hearts, they did, they really did.
Not so much the Rifftrax writing team... well, not all the time, anyway.
As I see it, their problem of late is that increasingly they are defeated by the movies they view. And I don't blame them, necessarily. Many titles in their catalog are a tough slog... personally, I don't see how they're able to keep doing what they're doing week after week.
But the fact remains that the MST3K 1.0 writing staff set a dauntingly high standard that many 2.0 pretenders are obligated to meet. In Rifftrax's case, often when something is happening on screen -- or rather, not happening on screen -- their writers will simply throw up their hands and surrender in one of two ways:
Either they'll recycle an old tried-and-true reference that wasn't even all that funny the first three dozen times it got trotted out ("Hey, gang, who's up for yet another Twilight shoutout?")
Or else they'll ignore the movie completely and spend the next minute fake bantering/bickering about some random topic that's neither here or there. (Santa's Village of Madness is particularly guilty of this.)
Not that any of this is a big problem, mind you, but it does have the effect of taking me out of the movie, so to speak.
As for possible solutions: maybe bringing in new writers might help. Bridget and Mary Jo are already on staff doing their shorts, so perhaps adding them as writers to Mike's episode crew might infuse a much needed breath of fresh air.
It sure couldn't hurt.
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Post by BoB3K on Jun 24, 2020 12:05:34 GMT -5
Time, effort and talent.
I think back in the 90s on a full (cable) network show with a writers room filled with young, energetic people, they simply put more time and effort and talent into the writing. They had fun with it, they put their own creative bits into it, they just cared more.
This isn't really a disparagement to Mike, Kevin and Bill, it's just life. They've been writing riffs for decades, and they've been successful, and now they're all older, probably secure financially, and they just don't have the drive. Of late, if you look at credits, I'm not sure Kevin or Bill even write that many riffs any more. Mike's name is still on them all, but I get a feeling even that is more of a head writer/producer type roll.
They need new writers, new talent, new perspectives.
We need what the MST3K reboot should have been-- A new group of young creative comedians that were ready to put in some time and energy make new weird fun, funny stuff, together as a group.
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Post by crowschmo on Jul 7, 2020 17:39:03 GMT -5
I saw the Mads a while back and THEY still had that old-school vibe. They didn't even sit in front of the movie, they sat in seats IN THE CROWD and just had microphones. It was just like, they had mics and everyone else in the crowd didn't and you were a part of it and it's just that you could hear Trace's and Frank's banter. Like they just happened to be two guys in the crowd, but, you know, they had mics.
That was a fun evening.
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Post by kooky on Jan 30, 2021 20:12:31 GMT -5
Yeah, Trace and Frank probably have my favorite post MST3K venture of all the people trying to recapture the magic. They strike the right balance of the Joel era nerdiness and that Mike directness that keeps the jokes coming. They also have great chemistry together. The irony is that I think Trace is the nice guy and Frank is heavily aggressive with his opinions, which subverts their MST3K dynamic.
But ultimately, it’s been really sad that the gang can’t truly get back together again 20 years later. The original Best Brains, eg the people on the 2008 San Diego Comic Con panel, are the American Monty Python of the 90s. We may be the only ones who know that but so be it. Clearly there was enough of us to launch the greatest Kickstarter in history.
But unfortunately this reboot was about Joel Hodgson’s long gestating revenge on Jim Mallon and the entertainment industry that refused to let him in in the 90s and 2000s. One day joel woke up and realize that mst3k was his legacy and he brilliantly took it from Jim and gave it to a bunch of mediocre Nerdist podcasters. Mike Nelson, Bridget, Kevin, Frank, Trace, Bill, never had anything to do with that and they knew that.
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Post by kooky on Jan 30, 2021 20:15:09 GMT -5
Yeah, Trace and Frank probably have my favorite post MST3K venture of all the people trying to recapture the magic. They strike the right balance of the Joel era nerdiness and that Mike directness that keeps the jokes coming. They also have great chemistry together. The irony is that I think Trace is the nice guy and Frank is heavily aggressive with his opinions, which subverts their MST3K dynamic. But ultimately, it’s been really sad that the gang can’t truly get back together again 20 years later. The original Best Brains, eg the people on the 2008 San Diego Comic Con panel, are the American Monty Python of the 90s. We may be the only ones who know that but so be it. Clearly there was enough of us to launch the greatest Kickstarter in history. But unfortunately this reboot was about Joel Hodgson’s long gestating revenge on Jim Mallon and the entertainment industry that refused to let him in in the 90s and 2000s. One day joel woke up and realize that mst3k was his legacy and he brilliantly took it from Jim and gave it to a bunch of mediocre Nerdist podcasters. Mike Nelson, Bridget, Kevin, Frank, Trace, Bill, never had anything to do with that and they knew that. And I love Joel, creative genius etc. but the dude has just been a total dick since this reboot changed his fortunes and indeed, he totally left out the people that made his show such a success. Yeah I’m all about new talent but this is MST3K. Get the original creators on board. Period.
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Post by stingerreel1 on Jan 31, 2021 0:24:29 GMT -5
Were any of the other creators (Trace, Kevin, Mike, etc) approached for the new season? I remember Joel's Kickstarter video being very lazy with how they approached them, but did Shout! or Joel actually meet up with them and properly discussed with them whether or not they wanted to join?
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