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Post by Hoss Ragen on May 16, 2007 19:25:05 GMT -5
I like them. The effect of the first one has worn on me just after two full listens, but Easter Everywhere is highly recommended. The Quicksilver Messenger Service is a must-listen band, as well. I have to agree that an appreciation, or at least knowledge, of 40s-50s era blues, jazz and such definitely causes you (and by that, I mean, "Caused me..." ;D ) to get a lot more out of the psychedelic stuff. As far as Hendrix or all these other T-shirt logo friendly, classic rock sacred cows being overrated rip-offs, I agree to some extent, but I guess you have to give them, from a historical perspective, more leeway than artists of today, who are 'forced' to be original in this era where copyright enforcement and intellectual property issues are paid attention to more than ever. Zappa, Hendrix and the like aren't be-all-end-all by any means, but there was a lot of ground to be covered in the 60s and those guys did so on a mainstream scale. Is anyone into the obscure stuff? I like the essentials as much as the next guy, but there are a lot of compilations out there that feature 60s music by artists who didn't move millions of LPs but still played excellent music.
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Post by mightyjack on May 16, 2007 20:24:04 GMT -5
OK, I'll take back one thing I said. Not all live Hendrix is garbage. The Band of Gypsies performance is quality. But, you can't tell me that all that drug-addled nonsense is good. Cause it's not. Live Experience stuff is, for the most part, crap. Jimi is so out of time and key with the rest of the band it's intolerable. And, as far as ripping off, I wasn't talking about going back to the blues, everyone does that. And, yeah, I've been playing long enough that I have just a little bit of musical history down, lol. It's the fact that he took what Zappa did with the guitar and plowed it mainstream. And, I suppose that's alright, but, when you give absolutely no credit to the man, that's a tad low. And, I may be wrong, but, I've never seen any interview, anywhere that shows Jimi giving Zappa any credit whatsoever. And, yes, he's overrated. There are tons of better guitarists and guitar solos that are better than Hendrix, but, you never see them at the top of a "Greatest Solos" or a "Greatest Guitarists" list. That's because most listeners are narrowminded and have never heard anything else. I mean, name the best Hendrix solo. I can probably name 5 better. Of course, none of us will ever be right. It's all opinion. Servo He was NOT bloody overrated! Christ people. I can name a lot of great solos. His work on Machine Gun is amazing (Especailly the Berkley version). Very interpretive. That guitar sings, he tells a story with each note more so than he does with the lyrics. His work on Voodoo Child (A Slight Return) is genius. I'll say it over and over and over till I'm blue in the face. A great artist makes a guitar come alive - For that reason alone, Jimi can NEVER be over-rated! You might be able to name 5 other great solos, but you can not tell me they are better. Because their is an intangible, living breathing quality to guitar work that you can't measure. Equal too, yes. Brilliant yes. But what he did on Machine Gun was masterful, that guitar bled, cried and had a living soul. He was outstanding live, Monterey, Berkley and Paris are all amazing. And while the band isn't up to the standards, Jimi smoked in Woodstock. As for going out of tune. Yeah, so friggin what. The guy bent his strings in every song and had to re-tune it between every song. Hell in Woodstock it goes out of tune midway through a song and you can see he's pissed about it. It's not like he was tone deaf and played that way for the fun of it. As for Zappa, there's no indication he was even aware of the man. Chet Atkins was the first to record with the Wah, Wah, he could have heard that, or picked it up from anywhere. Dylan was his sun, moon and stars as were the classic blues men. Jimi gave credit often. He praises Dylans influence, he praises the great bluemen who inspired him. He talked about the guys he saw playing guitar behind their back and with their teeth. He talked about the engineers and electricians who brought those FX he heard in his head to life. You know what I like least about Zappa, it's often his fans and all the whining . Oh poor Frank never gets any credit. Boo Hoo! Man, he got a lot of credit and critical praise. Besides that, there are a lot of amazing artists who have been forgotten through time. Hell I mentioned the 13th Elevator, who mentions them? Yet they were groundbreaking in many ways in the psychedelic movement. You don't see me whining. Christ your bloody Stones lifted the guitar riff in Jumping Jack Flash from an Elevators song. Am I gonna cry that it's not fair that they never receive credit for this? Frick no, Tom you know as well as I that music isn't fair. That great artist are often forgotten and never even recorded. Crap, the first guy to play with a FXs on a guitar might have been some poor schulb in a dirty bar, who never got a recording contract and never was known by anyone. Anyway, this crap is pissing me off and I need to get away from it before I have an aneurysm. When I listen to your or Atari's own music, I Can hear that both of you blow me away as musicians (I consider myself more of a songwriter) you both know what your talking about and playing in pure technical terms. But I think both of you are missing a fundamental key to what make a guitar player great. It's about putting your soul into the solo. Jimi played with a lot of soul. Oh and as for those "T-shirt logo friendly, classic rock sacred cows" Hoss mentions - It's like Jimi gets damned for making it big. If he'd struggled in ananimity(SP? And spellcheck didn't help. lol) we'd all be praising him and saying isn't it too bad he never got the credit he deserves. But a guy makes it huge and we gotta tear him down. It's ridiculous.
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Post by mightyjack on May 16, 2007 20:55:04 GMT -5
I like them. The effect of the first one has worn on me just after two full listens, but Easter Everywhere is highly recommended. The Quicksilver Messenger Service is a must-listen band. I still like the first one, but I agree, their second is the one that has a lasting depth. The only problem is that these small companies distribute them and have done a crap job in the re-mastering. Maybe it has something to do with the original masters. But man, its like each instrument is battling for attention. Baby Blue's guitar is too hot and the song before it, the vocals are nearly buried. I'd love to see a better balance, but that'll probably never happen. I still have yet to buy the 3rd. But I've liked what I've heard from it. Quicksilver is a group on my list. I really seriously need to get down to discovering the band. I know I've heard songs, but I've never given them a proper deep listen. Thanks for reminding me of them. There are so many great bands, so little time. I love the 60s and just exploring this decade has consumed a lot of time. I'm sure I'll discover a lot of gems before I die.
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Post by Hoss Ragen on May 16, 2007 21:55:47 GMT -5
Oh and as for those "T-shirt logo friendly, classic rock sacred cows" Hoss mentions - It's like Jimi gets damned for making it big. If he'd struggled in ananimity(SP? And spellcheck didn't help. lol) we'd all be praising him and saying isn't it too bad he never got the credit he deserves. But a guy makes it huge and we gotta tear him down. It's ridiculous. Definitely. By the way, I didn't want to come across like I'm talking trash just for the sake of going against the grain. Hendrix was one of the greats. And Lord knows I couldn't pick up a guitar and tear up chords with my stiff, pencil thin fingers if my life depended on it. And being born in the early 80s, I don't really have any sense of musical history other than what I collect or research. 'Overrated' does not, by any sense of my own definition, mean 'bad'. It's just that one of my pet peeves is young people my own age worshipping these deceased musicians as if they are gods, just because they want to appear more sophisticated than your average Joe NowThatsWhatICallMusic!Listener. In these Doors/Zappa/Hendrix threads, I just like to project my frustration with these 20-something retro-fetishization dopes who must think that Brian Setzer invented big-band swing or something like that
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Post by mightyjack on May 17, 2007 6:56:21 GMT -5
Understood Hoss, I see what you mean and how your applying the term. Don't mind me. I get my feelings easily hurt when it comes to music. And I hate the overrated term especially when used by fellow musicians. I mean, I've indicated that I'm not a big Pink Floyd fan, but I wouldn't use the word "overrated" on them. Floyd are not overrated, they are ranked and rated that high and loved by people for a reason. If anything, I'm underrating them - But seriously; just because they are not my style, doesn't mean their overrated. I know that sounds like nit picking, but the term bugs me man. really bugs me (almost as much as squares bug Banjo in Wild Rebel) Anyway: Another band I'd like to track down, from Wisconsin, "The Baroques". Read a few small things but never heard anything. I was trying to locate a website that gave out album release date, 1967 or any. I wasn't able to find one though I'm sure someone has done something out there.
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TomServo69
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Post by TomServo69 on May 17, 2007 21:09:44 GMT -5
Like I said boss, opinions. But, and this is the last I'm saying on this, as far as Zappa and Hendrix never having met, well, it's quite well documented that they met in NYC in 1966 and Zappa introduced Hendrix into the methods of using the wah pedal. Zappa innovated the wah. Now, I'm not gonna be one of these assholes who screams and whines about Zappa not getting his due, I'm just saying that every douche who's ever heard "Fire" or "All Along the Watchtower" owns a Hendrix shirt or their copy of the Experience's greatest hits. Speaking of the Experience, why don't those guys get that much credit? Mitch Mitchell and Noel Redding. Now, those are two guys who get no credit. I mean, it took a lot to hold those sloppy, acid induced solos together.
Sorry, you're not changing my outlook on this one. I've thought this and studied it for years.
Servo
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Post by Phantom Engineer on May 17, 2007 21:19:11 GMT -5
Now, I'm not gonna be one of these assholes who screams and whines about Zappa not getting his due, Too late.
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TomServo69
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Post by TomServo69 on May 17, 2007 21:30:40 GMT -5
Did I ever say anything about it Zappa not getting his due? Nope. Read the thread slick. I may have mentioned that he didn't get the mainstream attention as several undeserving artists, but, that is all.
Servo
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Post by Phantom Engineer on May 17, 2007 21:49:37 GMT -5
It's the fact that he took what Zappa did with the guitar and plowed it mainstream. And, I suppose that's alright, but, when you give absolutely no credit to the man, that's a tad low. I suppose it's open to interpretation.
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TomServo69
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Post by TomServo69 on May 17, 2007 21:55:16 GMT -5
It's the fact that he took what Zappa did with the guitar and plowed it mainstream. And, I suppose that's alright, but, when you give absolutely no credit to the man, that's a tad low. I suppose it's open to interpretation. Yes, yes it is. I was speaking of one person not giving credit. Not the masses. The masses give praise, at least in musician circles, you know that as well as I do. But, let me put it this way, how many "Guitar World" or "Rolling Stone" covers has Zappa been on? Not too many. Servo
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Post by mightyjack on May 18, 2007 12:17:29 GMT -5
Uh, your not, uh whining about that are you? Man, you sure get your undies in a wad about credit. Yeah, the casual listeners might not know or care, but they all get credit where it matters. I'm an old man; was listening to this stuff when it was released and was playing guitar when you were in diapers (Not saying that makes me smarter or better, just saying. I lived it, I was there as it unfolded) and I've always loved and praised Mitch and Redding - and Hendrix biographers, fans, critics, have always credited Mitch and Redding for that sound and for accentuating those tight, work of art solos of Jimi's. But I stand corrected (I think, I'm still not sure) on Zappa and Jimi, Through out all of my years and all of the books I've read on Hendrix. I've never come across one account of a meeting between the two where Zappa showed off the wonders of the Wah, Wah during Hendrix's days in the Village before fame struck. I did though, find a story about Jimi giving him a guitar Jimi destroyed in 1968, and that Zappa rebuilt and played it. So they did meet at least then, I was wrong. I'm sorry, I'll go sit in the corner now
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Post by mightyjack on May 18, 2007 12:26:24 GMT -5
Anyway, back to what the frick this thread is all about. Loving the music -not- dissing it!
Janis Joplin didn't get a record released in 1967. She was close, but played Monterey, impressed Dylan's manager so much he signed her up and sent her out on tour. Her LP wouldn't be released until the summer of '68. But she was a huge part of the music scene in '67.
I love this story about Jimi playing in a club, testing out some new material. When a drunk Jim Morrison interupts the show, staggers on stage and starts swearing and sluirring. Joplin pops Jim on the head with a whiskey bottle to get him to shut up.
What a beautiful story ;D Back before the internet and the media floods of today, a guy could fill stadiums but still quietly play in a small club, and in the audience, you might find two contemporaries who also played to huge crowds. What a sweet era.
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Post by KGB on May 18, 2007 16:52:49 GMT -5
Yes, and within 10 months all three of the aforementioned shuffled off this mortal coil; three of the most self-indulgent and overrated "artists" of all time. This string of fortunate events culminated in July of 1971 with Jim Morrison's death. See, I told everybody that 1971 was the best year ever!
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Post by Phantom Engineer on May 18, 2007 18:20:53 GMT -5
I love this story about Jimi playing in a club, testing out some new material. When a drunk Jim Morrison interupts the show, staggers on stage and starts swearing and sluirring. Joplin pops Jim on the head with a whiskey bottle to get him to shut up. Yeah, right. A "drunk" Jim Morrison? Mighty Jack, stop making things up! I'm so sure.
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Post by Broadsword on May 18, 2007 21:22:27 GMT -5
What a great thread. MJ I love the the passion you have for your music. It's a pleasure to read your "rants". For me I love Hendrix, I haven't liston to all of the BBC Sessions yet but I like what I have heard. The overrated/underrated question I don't care, I like what I like. I always though it was a term to state what someone likes or dislikes and nothing more.
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