|
Post by BoB3K on Oct 6, 2008 9:45:55 GMT -5
So, I've finished watching Wasp Woman. I started it about a month ago. Watched half. Thought it was okay. Not really much improvement over the last two, which were both mildly entertaining but really not that much fun. Stopped halfway through and went to bed. It left so little impression on me that I just never got back to it until last night. Started it up where I left off, and I was asleep about 15 minutes later. Woke up to see the wasp lady, fell back asleep, and woke up when the theme music started playing and the "theatre" was empty. I hate to say it, but I think that the CT "riff delivery system" is just kinda boring, and dare I say, not that funny. And this is coming from a guy who likes (a lot) MST3K seasons 2, 1 and even the KTMA eps. I wasn't overly excited when Mike started RiffTrax, what with no plot or even sillouttes, but I tell you, when you listen to Mike, Kevin and Bill, they've got chemistry! They get into it, rib each other, bounce jokes back and forth--it's a good time. CT on the other hand sounds like 5 people who've never met, who've seperately written a bunch of (mildy funny at best) jokes and then meet in a cold studio to read through and record their lines. And, man, where did their funny go? Riffs on any project will always be hit or miss simply because of the sheer amount that the riffers have to come up with, but man, more than a few of CTs actually make me cringe--for example the entire opening credits of Doomsday Machine. And the skits--other than Josh's "song" in Oozing skull, the rest of the skits have ranged from unfunny to verging on insulting (both of the Jazz skits come to mind). Where's the fun of "MOVIE SIGN!!!!!" or "Cambot, Give me rocket number 9!!!!" or "DEEEEP HUUUUUUURTING" ?? Where's the funny like "They tried to kill him with a forklift!!" or "He learned to late that man was a feeling creature..." or "SLEEP!" or "Sampo" ?? It's just not there. I think they've lost it. If you want to see some of that MST3K spark, check out the Incognito Cinema Warriors XP (ICWXP) over at RiffTrax presents. They get it. I downloaded and watched their Ep 2, Lady Frankenstein. Their amateur 2nd attempt blows away anything that CT has done so far. I was REALLY excited when I heard the news about Joel and Co. getting back together a year or so ago--check out the first threads of this sub-form, about half are mine. But then I watched their first Ep, and was nostalgic and happy, but also a little disappointed. But I didn't give up, I watched the 2nd ep, and then the 3rd, and I just don't see them going any further--I think this is their stride. And, it really didn't hit me until I watched that Ep of ICWXP. It was almost immediate--this show has the spirit of MST3K. CT doesn't. EDIT: Updated title to reflect the large amounts of ICWXP talk to follow (BTW, decide for yourself: here's their link icwxp.com/)EDIT: Changed the title again to reflect the general discussion of all the new-age riffing vehicles.
|
|
|
Post by wedestroymyths on Oct 6, 2008 16:46:14 GMT -5
In the spirit of our current presidential election and the concept of equal time, I'll go on record as saying that I disagree with everything you just said (except for the stuff about liking early MST).
Rifftrax comes off as pretty uninspired in my book. I've watched a handful of episodes and laughed about 3 times. I also think they cheat a bit by using 'good' or 'more polished' movies.
CT on the other hand, while not quite as solid as MST captures the MST spirit well.
I do find it fascinating that we can be perceiving two 'riff delivery' systems in completely opposite fashion. Literally, everything you said about RT I feel about CT, and vice versa...
I wonder how that happens. I'm genuinely curious.
(note, I've never had a favorite between Joel and Mike (or I have, but it's never been one of them--some days I'm a Mike guy, other days a Joel guy), and I didn't pick up on any pre-existing bias in the original post, so I doubt this plays a roll in it? The only difference I noticed is that I had zero expectations with regards to skits and backstory).
Fascinating, indeed.
|
|
|
Post by Captain Hygiene on Oct 6, 2008 17:08:30 GMT -5
So, comedy is subjective? I'm sorry to hear that you've been disappointed with CT, BoB3k. If I were in your position, I'd probably give it a rest for a while, and then check back again a bit down the road. After a couple more writing sessions, they may hit a groove that you like better. They've improved a bit in terms of interactions between the characters just in the first few episodes, so they may continue in that regard with future releases.
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Jack on Oct 6, 2008 18:07:29 GMT -5
Yup as has been demostrated several times, we all have different tastes. I mean I think Incognito Cinema Warriors are wretched, just terribly unfunny, while CT is drop dead hilarious for me.
|
|
|
Post by Queen Shadowrama on Oct 6, 2008 19:08:15 GMT -5
Another thing to keep in mind is that Doomsday Machine, Wasp Woman, and Legacy of Blood were all filmed at the same time. As such, it would be harder for them to adjust to the criticisms given simply because they've been in the can for ages before we actually see them.
So I think the real test is to see what the releases are like after Legacy of Blood, because I think some improvements could have been implemented during their last filming session a couple weeks ago. I don't think it will be anything drastic (like suddenly have the host segments out of silhouette like I would like), but who knows? The chemistry might get better.
I'm quite happy with the releases so far, but there is significant room for improvement. I think Rifftrax is still producing a superior product (granted they have good financial backing), but damn it all, I can't not give Joel and Co. my money. Besides, they've been out of the riffing loop for much longer, and like I said, the way they film these things means there's going to be a much longer turnaround in terms of seeing the show evolve. Unless they suddenly get a jillion dollars and can afford to fly everyone out every week, it's going to be a cycle of improvement, long plateau, improvement, long plateau...
But yeah, give it a break if you need to. I'm pretty sure they'll still be there when you get back. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Chuck on Oct 6, 2008 19:57:32 GMT -5
Everybody has their own likes and dislikes.
Art, comedy, music. It IS subjective. It is according to each person's taste. We are all born with a clean palette, and we learn what we like or don't like. AND, you can tire of a particular genre.
I enjoy these guys and their work. I'm glad they're back, and I like it more than Rifftrax.
|
|
|
Post by mst3ktemple on Oct 6, 2008 21:19:14 GMT -5
I've shown episodes of MST3K to friends over the years and sometimes they just didn't get it or even down right disliked it. Of course many loved it and became fans. Everyone's tastes are different.
I for one have been very happy with both RiffTrax and Cinematic Titanic, but as with anything there are stronger moments than others. Let's face it, there is still very little to base a judgement on CT on. If you're still riding the fence the next few episodes may sway you one way or the other. If you've already made up your mind then you may have moved on already. I for one am anxiously awaiting every release.
|
|
|
Post by Skyroniter on Oct 7, 2008 5:56:39 GMT -5
I'm with mst3ktemple on this one. I've enjoyed CT so far, the third one a bit less than the first two. They just don't have the body of work yet to form a definitive opinion for me. Plus they should be allowed some time to find their groove. As for Rifftrax, they do have the body of work for me to form an opinion and it is that I like them very much.
|
|
|
Post by Shep on Oct 7, 2008 6:35:02 GMT -5
Hmmm I'm really enjoying these actually. I've watched "Oozing" and "Wasp" twice each and think I've watched "Doomsday Machine" like five times (that one is an absolute classic. "A bazooka and a crowbar--the Halliburton logo." LMAO ).
To me CT very much has that MST3K feel and I prefer it to Rifftrax because the CT riffing seems a little smarter/more obscure.
Looking forward to the new ones.
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Jack on Oct 7, 2008 8:21:54 GMT -5
^ That was a classic line - And I couldn't agree with you more Shep.
Skull is still my fav. man I have watched that so much (I'm nearing 10 views I think) and I'm in stitches everytime. I find I want to watch these over and over just as I did during the MST days. I said it before -speaking for myself- CT is like coming home to the style of riffing I love best.
|
|
|
Post by BoB3K on Oct 7, 2008 9:36:08 GMT -5
(note, I've never had a favorite between Joel and Mike Neither have I, although I am of the opinion that Mike's a little funnier than Joel, but that Joel was a little better MST3K host. But I don't think that swayed my opinion here. Go watch a Mike era MST3K and then watch a RiffTrax--'bout the same. Now go watch a good season 3 or 4 Joel era MST3K and then watch a CT--not the same. IMHO (I'm only gonna say that once--it applies throughout), the CT delivery is a little hollow and without character. Another thing to keep in mind is that Doomsday Machine, Wasp Woman, and Legacy of Blood were all filmed at the same time. True. I don't plan on geting Legacy of Blood. But I will definitely check out their next batch. In fact, I already have tickets to their December live show in Chicago, so I'll get a first had taste of the next batch. Plus they should be allowed some time to find their groove. First, let me say, that I am NOT trying to start any arguments or flame-wars, just having a friendly discussion. I see a lot of people saying this and I agree up to a point. These guys are all 20 year veterans of riffing and comedy and performing and they've all worked together before. As I said in my OP, I did give them 3 tries now--I think that is PLENTY. These guys are not rookies--they've all made me laugh 1000s of times in the past. Which actally might be the problem. To me, they're just not as funny as back in their MST3K era. Is that expecting too much? Maybe. That's why I brought up ICWXP in my post. Even if you don't love their death-metal intro, and you think some of their riffs are harsh (I actually think they're no worse than some of the major-ass riffs of MST3K seasons 9+), I think they showed that a TRUE MST3K like successor is very possible. They've got the whole shebang--fun characters, host segments, theater segments, cheesy movies. CT is like coming home to the style of riffing I love best. It's funny, because I used to always say that I liked the older MST3Ks best (I still do) and that I liked Joel's style better than the later seasons of MST3K (really, I like them all). But, it's interesting to see that there is more than one level there. I enjoy riffs about Berges Meredith or J. Edgar Hoover (who doesn't), but, ya'know, I don't think esoteric references are the heart of why I like the old MST3Ks the best. I think I liked the warm cozy Saturday Night creature feature feel of the old Eps the best. I liked the skits that were thinly veiled enactments of kids stuck inside on a rainy Saturday making up games or projects to pass the time, but layered with that clever adult humor that Joel, Trace, Frank, Kevin, etc had. And that's what I don't see in the new CT. Say what you want, they're just RiffTrax with sillouttes and older movies. And, reguardless of how it sounded in my OP, I've never fell in love with RiffTrax--they also have no plot, no characters, no skits, and top of that they riff movies that are granted cheesy, but not what I like to watch riffed. My point above was that at least Mike, Kevin and Bill still have their chemistry. I don't think the CT gang even have that. So, comedy is subjective?. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was giving my opinion in my OP. Unless you're using this observation to discount my opinion, which is kind of hypocritical. ... Any way, I know this post here is somewhat like (what's the opposite of preaching to the choir? Trying to convert the choir?), but that's why I didn't post it at CT.com--this is firstly an MST3K website, and as a hardcore MST3K fan that tried out CT, this is my opinion. Sad, but true. And I say sad because I do LOVE Joel, (TV's) Frank, Trace, Mary J, and even Josh. (Sometimes late at night when no one is watching, I still propose that Josh was a better Tom Servo than Kevin (which is saying a lot bcause I think Kevin is a GREAT Tom Servo).)
|
|
|
Post by doctorz on Oct 7, 2008 9:54:28 GMT -5
I agree with BoB3K's assessment about the first two attempts. Oozing skull was a first effort. Good, but I hated the movie and it interfered with my enjoyment of the riffing. I loath Doomsday Machine to the core of my being just because it's just such a god awful, hateful movie. I can't watch stuff like Doomsday Machine even if it's the best Riff ever. (My problem and I truly envy those of you who can watch anything the riffers do.) However, Wasp Woman showed true promise and I am still eager to buy and give the guys and gal a shot. I still think they have it and believe they will build on their strengths to produce some epic Riffs.
|
|
|
Post by quinnmartin on Oct 7, 2008 9:58:03 GMT -5
It's funny, because I used to always say that I liked the older MST3Ks best (I still do) and that I liked Joel's style better than the later seasons of MST3K (really, I like them all). But, it's interesting to see that there is more than one level there. I enjoy riffs about Berges Meredith or J. Edgar Hoover (who doesn't), but, ya'know, I don't think esoteric references are the heart of why I like the old MST3Ks the best. I think I liked the warm cozy Saturday Night creature feature feel of the old Eps the best. I liked the skits that were thinly veiled enactments of kids stuck inside on a rainy Saturday making up games or projects to pass the time, but layered with that clever adult humor that Joel, Trace, Frank, Kevin, etc had. I agree with pretty much everything you said there. But to be fair, that vibe was missing for a good chunk of MST3K's run as well, so I don't expect CT to recapture it. To me RiffTrax, Sci-Fi era MST3K (really, post Frank & Forrester MST3K), Film Crew, and CT are all simply vehicles for riffing. Doesn't mean they can't produce greatness, but they always lacked that extra something special something that you were referring to. And I also found Wasp Woman hard to get through, for some reason. Maybe it's the movie, or maybe the riffing isn't up to par, but it never really grabbed me. But Oozing Skull and Doomsday Machine made me laugh harder and more often than most season 9 and 10 MST3K eps. Certainly good enough to convince me that they've still got it. And Mike, Bill, and Kevin have been riffing together as a trio since the mid-90's. I doubt if the Titans will ever develop that kind of chemistry riffing as a 5-some.
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Atari on Oct 7, 2008 10:18:19 GMT -5
Go watch a Mike era MST3K and then watch a RiffTrax--'bout the same. Now go watch a good season 3 or 4 Joel era MST3K and then watch a CT--not the same. IMHO (I'm only gonna say that once--it applies throughout), the CT delivery is a little hollow and without character. I think this is a great observation. I always (slightly) preferred Joel to Mike and (greatly) preferred Trace to Bill. Yet, I also find Rifftrax to have a better flow and a looser execution than CT. My main complaint about CT has been that it sounds too scripted. It's more like 5 people reading lines than 5 friends goofing off and riffing a movie. They don't talk to each other (except for the skits), they don't laugh at each other's riffs, and when they do change inflection, it's over the top. It sounds like they're stiffly taking turns performing their script. And sadly, that criticism applies to all three releases so far. That's not to say it isn't funny; it is. There's a lot about CT I do enjoy, like Josh's sense of humor and the joy of hearing Joel riff movies again. But I find that I have to keep telling myself, "CT is not MST...and that's okay."
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Jack on Oct 7, 2008 10:29:06 GMT -5
^ See I don't have that same reaction. I put on an MST I laugh like mad, I put on a CT... I laugh like mad. PLUS, I feel the chemestry. Oodles of it. For me Oozing Skull makes me laugh as hard and as frequently as an average MST ep.
But now I'm just going in circles ;D actually Chuck said it best. It's all subjective.
|
|