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Post by MonsterX on Oct 7, 2008 10:50:42 GMT -5
I think Wasp Woman was the weakest episode so far but I love the other two.
But Incognito Cinema Warriors? Are you serious? I can’t believe they haven’t been sued yet. Well, whatever floats your boat.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 7, 2008 10:56:06 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much everything you said there. But to be fair, that vibe was missing for a good chunk of MST3K's run as well, so I don't expect CT to recapture it. That's a really good point. I may just be expecting too much. and when they do change inflection, it's over the top. They do don't they. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a buch of people that have never performed before. But who knows, maybe when you're off stage for 10 or so years, you can lose it. Maybe they can get it back. Only time will tell.
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Post by Captain Hygiene on Oct 7, 2008 11:06:33 GMT -5
So, comedy is subjective?. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was giving my opinion in my OP. Unless you're using this observation to discount my opinion, which is kind of hypocritical. Don't worry, I was just making a (weak) joke. The first two posts were essentially "Rifftrax: great chemistry, CT: blah" and "Rifftrax: blah, CT: great chemistry". In the past, I've read absolutely glowing reviews of some MST episodes and gone into them with super-high expectations. Then I was disappointed to find that I didn't see anything special about some of them. The posts here just illustrate that subjectivity very well.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Oct 7, 2008 11:10:44 GMT -5
In the past, I've read absolutely glowing reviews of some MST episodes and gone into them with super-high expectations. Then I was disappointed to find that I didn't see anything special about some of them. All of Gods children are special Davey.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 7, 2008 11:34:22 GMT -5
I think Wasp Woman was the weakest episode so far but I love the other two. Maybe that was my problem--see I thought Wasp Woman would be the best ep so far because a) it's a better movie than the last two (relatively speaking of course), i.e. cheesy but not god-aweful; and b) they would still be improving. But Incognito Cinema Warriors? Are you serious? I can’t believe they haven’t been sued yet. Well, whatever floats your boat. I've heard a lot of people say this, and it kind of rings a little with fan-boy-ism, or at least a lack of understanding of copyright. I mean, we're talking the entertainment industry here. There are right now on network television 47 (I made that number up) cop dramas that all have the same premise and the same format and the same, well everything but name. Go compare all the sit-coms over the last 80 years. Same format. Ya gotta have kids, a whacky neighbor, etc. etc. Now I will admit, that ICWXP is almost exclusively derivative (the theater and the door sequence, the bots, Zombie sign), but on the other hand, their derivative work is pretty good, fun and entertaining--especially considering that to my knowledge thay have no other tv/movie making experience. (I think a lot of them are in bands, thus the crazy intro song.) I think that with a dozen eps, they may grow into a solid rival to the big boys. I'm just glad someone is trying to continue the part of MST3K legacy that's being left behing by the others--the campy plot and characters and skits that made MST3K such an endearing show, and not just some guys making fun of stuff. After all, riffing by itself is already derivative--people have been making fun of stuff for a long time now. The first time I think I saw riffing was Beavis and Butthead riffing on music videos back in the early 90s. And if you want to get all historical, you've got stuff like What's Up, Tiger Lily? in the 60s or Dead men Don't Wear Plaid in the 80's or even Drive-In Theater with Joe Bob Briggs. But, back to my point. I really don't think they will be sued. Bottom line is that really only the "premise" has been copied. It's not like their recreating actual skits or reriffing the same movies from MST3K. And besides, they copied the premise out of a love for MST3K, not to "cash in" on it's HUGE success. (Cuz we all know that Best Brains, RiffTrax, and CT are all RAKING in the cash ) ... You know, reading back all that I've written in this thread, I think I'm actually critizing all of the former Brains here--all of this "just riffing." I know some people are in it just for the riffs (or was that for the kicks). But I did and always will prefer a complete show. I really liked The Film Crew and was sad to hear that even after its release and good reception it was shelved to completely concentrate on RiffTrax. I honestly think people owe it to ICWXP and others like them to give them a chance since our riffing alumni have all chosen the, dare I say, easy route.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 7, 2008 11:35:24 GMT -5
Don't worry, I was just making a (weak) joke. The first two posts were essentially "Rifftrax: great chemistry, CT: blah" and "Rifftrax: blah, CT: great chemistry". Gotcha and see your point.
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Post by Donna SadCat Lady on Oct 7, 2008 11:41:54 GMT -5
I thought it was pretty obvious that I was giving my opinion in my OP. Unless you're using this observation to discount my opinion, which is kind of hypocritical. Don't worry, I was just making a (weak) joke. The first two posts were essentially "Rifftrax: great chemistry, CT: blah" and "Rifftrax: blah, CT: great chemistry". In the past, I've read absolutely glowing reviews of some MST episodes and gone into them with super-high expectations. Then I was disappointed to find that I didn't see anything special about some of them. The posts here just illustrate that subjectivity very well. It also helps to imagine all of CH's posts being spoken in an extremely wry voice--think Robert Reed a la Bloodlust. The longer one's been around a comedy show fan board, the more one sees over and over (and over again) that these types of discussions all come down to the same thing--namely, that, yup, comedy is subjective. Not hypocrisy--more a recognition of an old truth. Now, maybe that's a hint towards what MST got right, and what RiffTrax and CT are still struggling with. MST's humor was so wide-ranging and covered so many types of jokes, from puns to grossness to esoterica to slapstick and so on, that in every ep there are enough lines to appeal to many different tastes. And if one doesn't care for a particular performer's style, well, over the years there are several different performers to choose from--not to mention the different seasons each with a unique feeling--on top of the different movies themselves. Yet the framework of commenting on an old movie while in silhouette, with a few brief skits thrown in, contained all this variety and kept it from flying all over the place--or kept it from devolving into a simple variety show. So... what am I trying to say with all that? I dunno. Maybe just that there's more of MST to love.
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Post by MonsterX on Oct 7, 2008 13:56:05 GMT -5
I think Wasp Woman was the weakest episode so far but I love the other two. Maybe that was my problem--see I thought Wasp Woman would be the best ep so far because a) it's a better movie than the last two (relatively speaking of course), i.e. cheesy but not god-aweful; and b) they would still be improving. But Incognito Cinema Warriors? Are you serious? I can’t believe they haven’t been sued yet. Well, whatever floats your boat. I've heard a lot of people say this, and it kind of rings a little with fan-boy-ism, or at least a lack of understanding of copyright. I mean, we're talking the entertainment industry here. There are right now on network television 47 (I made that number up) cop dramas that all have the same premise and the same format and the same, well everything but name. Go compare all the sit-coms over the last 80 years. Same format. Ya gotta have kids, a whacky neighbor, etc. etc. Now I will admit, that ICWXP is almost exclusively derivative (the theater and the door sequence, the bots, Zombie sign), but on the other hand, their derivative work is pretty good, fun and entertaining--especially considering that to my knowledge thay have no other tv/movie making experience. (I think a lot of them are in bands, thus the crazy intro song.) I think that with a dozen eps, they may grow into a solid rival to the big boys. I'm just glad someone is trying to continue the part of MST3K legacy that's being left behing by the others--the campy plot and characters and skits that made MST3K such an endearing show, and not just some guys making fun of stuff. After all, riffing by itself is already derivative--people have been making fun of stuff for a long time now. The first time I think I saw riffing was Beavis and Butthead riffing on music videos back in the early 90s. And if you want to get all historical, you've got stuff like What's Up, Tiger Lily? in the 60s or Dead men Don't Wear Plaid in the 80's or even Drive-In Theater with Joe Bob Briggs. But, back to my point. I really don't think they will be sued. Bottom line is that really only the "premise" has been copied. It's not like their recreating actual skits or reriffing the same movies from MST3K. And besides, they copied the premise out of a love for MST3K, not to "cash in" on it's HUGE success. (Cuz we all know that Best Brains, RiffTrax, and CT are all RAKING in the cash ) ... You know, reading back all that I've written in this thread, I think I'm actually critizing all of the former Brains here--all of this "just riffing." I know some people are in it just for the riffs (or was that for the kicks). But I did and always will prefer a complete show. I really liked The Film Crew and was sad to hear that even after its release and good reception it was shelved to completely concentrate on RiffTrax. I honestly think people owe it to ICWXP and others like them to give them a chance since our riffing alumni have all chosen the, dare I say, easy route. I’m sorry but I’m forced to strongly disagree with you about the Cinema Jockeys EX or whatever they are. For the very points you mentioned they are a blatant rip-off act. If it was just the guys doing a commentary ala Rifftrax it would be one thing as there’s so copyright on doing funny commentaries, but this is very obviously different. Maybe I could believe they were fans if they were doing this just as homage, but the second you charge people money it becomes theft and that’s exactly what’s going on here. They couldn’t even come up with an original premise.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 7, 2008 14:31:43 GMT -5
Maybe I could believe they were fans if they were doing this just as homage, but the second you charge people money it becomes theft and that’s exactly what’s going on here. They couldn’t even come up with an original premise. Okay, I'm going to have to change my opinion from possible fanboyism to major fanboyism. What exactly are these people stealing? Did they break into the Best Brains Studio and run off with the Tom and Crow puppets? No. They haven't stolen anything. They've put a lot of work into a project that is based on an earlier project that they admire. Why shouldn't they charge for it? I'm sorry, but your attitude here seams a little naive and over-protective of a group of entertainers that I don't think need protecting. I mean, it's being distributed through RiffTrax, so obviously Mike doesn't have a problem with it. In fact, I think there's a quote on the back of the ICWXP box from Mike. If you don't like their take on riffing, fine, but calling them thieves is silly.
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Post by MonsterX on Oct 7, 2008 18:14:36 GMT -5
Maybe I could believe they were fans if they were doing this just as homage, but the second you charge people money it becomes theft and that’s exactly what’s going on here. They couldn’t even come up with an original premise. Okay, I'm going to have to change my opinion from possible fanboyism to major fanboyism. What exactly are these people stealing? Did they break into the Best Brains Studio and run off with the Tom and Crow puppets? No. They haven't stolen anything. They've put a lot of work into a project that is based on an earlier project that they admire. Why shouldn't they charge for it? I'm sorry, but your attitude here seams a little naive and over-protective of a group of entertainers that I don't think need protecting. I mean, it's being distributed through RiffTrax, so obviously Mike doesn't have a problem with it. In fact, I think there's a quote on the back of the ICWXP box from Mike. If you don't like their take on riffing, fine, but calling them thieves is silly. Okay, I'm going to have to call you out on major fanboyism. What these people are stealing is obvious to anyone not a Inedible Catalpas Whipple XP fan. Did they break into the Best Brains Studio and run off with the Tom and Crow puppets? No. They made their own and used them along with the guy trapped in a theater and forced to watch bad movies premise to rip off the show. The people who created MST3K put a lot of work into what they did and then Incorrigible Movie Guys 7.5 came along and stole the idea because they couldn’t come up with anything original. They shouldn't charge for it. I'm sorry, but your attitude here seams a little naive and over-protective of a group of entertainers that I don't think need protecting. It's being distributed through RiffTrax, so obviously Mike doesn't have a problem with it, but then again Mike doesn’t have any stake in MST3K as an intellectual property does he? If you like their take on riffing, fine, but not calling them thieves is silly. Zomg ya see what I did there? Look, if I told someone on the board that there’s a show about a guy who’s trapped in a theater and forced by a mad scientist to watch really bad movies along with his robot friends they would say it’s MST3K. Why wouldn’t they say Indelible Nacho Warriors Z4? It’s because it’s MST3K’s show and not theirs. If they came up with a different premise I would do a 180 and praise their efforts, even if I wasn’t a bog fan of their riffing, but as long as they are ripping off MST I can’t.
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Post by Chuck on Oct 7, 2008 19:33:23 GMT -5
The way one approaches the series (BOTH MST3K and CT) is that, okay, we're going to see a crappy movie with five of our funniest friends. What are we going to see?
MST3K was like that. I looked forward to it every week. Likewise, I look forward to the next CT episode.
And with CT, it only repeats if you put it in. You're not forced to watch it in reruns. Where some got dull. God, Jim, they got dull.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 7, 2008 20:29:33 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to have to call you out on major fanboyism. What these people are stealing is obvious to anyone not a Inedible Catalpas Whipple XP fan. Did they break into the Best Brains Studio and run off with the Tom and Crow puppets? No. They made their own and used them along with the guy trapped in a theater and forced to watch bad movies premise to rip off the show. The people who created MST3K put a lot of work into what they did and then Incorrigible Movie Guys 7.5 came along and stole the idea because they couldn’t come up with anything original. They shouldn't charge for it. I'm sorry, but your attitude here seams a little naive and over-protective of a group of entertainers that I don't think need protecting. It's being distributed through RiffTrax, so obviously Mike doesn't have a problem with it, but then again Mike doesn’t have any stake in MST3K as an intellectual property does he? If you like their take on riffing, fine, but not calling them thieves is silly. Zomg ya see what I did there? Look, if I told someone on the board that there’s a show about a guy who’s trapped in a theater and forced by a mad scientist to watch really bad movies along with his robot friends they would say it’s MST3K. Why wouldn’t they say Indelible Nacho Warriors Z4? It’s because it’s MST3K’s show and not theirs. If they came up with a different premise I would do a 180 and praise their efforts, even if I wasn’t a bog fan of their riffing, but as long as they are ripping off MST I can’t. You can "turn my words" around all you want, it doesn't mean it makes a good point or even any sense. And your repeated mocking of their name (which is a pretty silly name, I agree) only adds to the impression that your actual arguments are weak. I'm not a fanboy--you can't be a fanboy of a show with 1 episode. You can't steal a premise to a show. You can steal a trademarked show name or character name. You can steal a trademarked logo. You can steal a patented idea. But, no matter how much it annoys you, you cannot accuse someone of theft for creating a show with the same premise as an earlier show. And I'm addressing here directly your statement that "[you] can't believe they haven't been sued yet." Now, from a moral and creative perspective, if MST3K was still up and running, churning out new episodes, topping the charts and these guys came along with their obvious rippoff, then I'd call it a rippoff and call them lame and dismiss them. But MST3K isn't still churning them out. There hasn't been a new episode in like 10 years. And there hasn't been any official "Next Generation" started. In fact, all the major players have started their own "riffing" projects that have left behind a good bit of the fun parts of MST3K. It is in that world that I look on an ICWXP and say, "Hey cool, someones trying to revive the good old MST3K days. Good for them." Personally, if it were me, I too would have come up with a plot a little more my own, but then again, there are some things you just can not leave out if you want an MST3K like premise--I think the characters must be isolated, they must be being forced to watch the crappy movies, and the in-theater must have sillouttes or something similar. That really doesn't leave a lot of room to NOT be called an MST3K wanna-be. Another aside--you do know that a whole BUNCH of the elements of MST3K were, by Joels own telling, inspired by previous works. Two I can think of off the top of my head are: The guy trapped in space with bots idea comes from the movie Silent Running. The sillouttes come from the old Looney Toons where Bugs Bunny would yell out to the audience or vica-versa.
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Post by beljah on Oct 7, 2008 21:00:41 GMT -5
I've loved each CT more than the last and can't wait for Legacy of Blood download on Thursday. Can't believe people don't get it. Takes all sorts. Folks bitch that a TV show goes away, the core comes back, and they bitch. Whatever.
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Post by MonsterX on Oct 7, 2008 22:28:44 GMT -5
My dear BoB3K,
Spin it all you like, its still a show about a guy trapped in a theater forced by a mad scientist to watch cheesy movies, which he does while cracking wise with the help of his two robotic companions. Nothing you can say will change that fact.
That’s the basic premise for MST and that’s the basic premise of the show that’s ripping them off. Until they come up with a different premise they will still be the show ripping them off. This is my opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of the staff of this board blah blah blah.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Oct 8, 2008 3:44:49 GMT -5
Not to be contrary and just to clarify, while they might have 1 on the rifftrax site (and that might be all your familiar with), the Incognito gang has been around for a while and has put together a number of releases.
They've done some movies I'd have loved to have seen on MST and I looked forward to their work on these flicks... but as I've already stated. They pretty much aren't funny to me in the least.
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