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Post by dangfish on Oct 13, 2008 16:15:02 GMT -5
I doubt it. I think Mike is always honest with his opinions. He's always said as far as fan riffs go 'the more the merrier.' I don't think he would've said they were funny if he didn't think they were. I didn't say Mike didn't think they were funny. I was speculating that Mike's endorsement of them probably irks Mallon, and wondering whether that could be a side benefit for Mike, whose own MST spin-off was delayed due to Mallon's interference. Well, Mike doesn't strike me as at all vindictive, but who knows? We're all human and perhaps there is some resentment after the Film Crew incident.
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Post by ensignsmather13 on Oct 14, 2008 8:45:31 GMT -5
Jim Mallon (who blocked Rhino from releasing Film Crew because it was too much like MST3K)... Speaking of MST3K rip-offs and Jim Mallon and The Film Crew. The way I understand it from interviews and such, Jim didn't put the kabosh on The Film Crew because of copyright/intellectual property stuff specifically, but because it was Rhino who was going to release it and he thought they should be concentrating on MST3K releases. I agree with dangfish, too. Mike doesn't seem like the person who would thumb his nose at anybody (outside of a riff that is). I don't know...Rhino was distributing a lot of shows at that time. Why should the addition of one other show decrease their concentration specifically on MST3K? Did Jim try to block other shows Rhino was handling as well? I suspect the real reason Mallon had a problem with Film Crew is that it was a 'riffing' show and he didn't want any competition. He couldn't use the copyright/intellectual property angle because they didn't directly copy MST, but he could threaten to pull MST if Rhino did business with Film Crew. I'm sure Mike is a very nice person. But how would you feel? How far does your niceness extend? Those guys were colleagues for a decade. I seem to remember hearing Kevin was friends with Jim. MST had been off the air for many years before Film Crew was produced. So the first thing their friend and colleague does upon learning of their new venture is put a stumbling block in front of them? If Mike, Kevin and Bill were totally okay with that, then they are a lot nicer than I am.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 14, 2008 11:06:42 GMT -5
I don't know...Rhino was distributing a lot of shows at that time. Why should the addition of one other show decrease their concentration specifically on MST3K? Did Jim try to block other shows Rhino was handling as well? I suspect the real reason Mallon had a problem with Film Crew is that it was a 'riffing' show and he didn't want any competition. He couldn't use the copyright/intellectual property angle because they didn't directly copy MST, but he could threaten to pull MST if Rhino did business with Film Crew. That's what I meant--not another show in general, but another riffing show.
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Post by quinnmartin on Oct 14, 2008 11:59:15 GMT -5
I can see where Mike might be ticked at Jim for the Film Crew situation, but I fail to see how his support of ICWXP really hurts Jim at all. Nobody's going to choose to not buy future MST3K box sets because they're spending their money on ICWXP instead. If anything they might create a few more MSTies that might up a few more $'s in Jim's pocket.
Of course that would be different if Jim decided to reboot the MST3K franchise with a new cast, because they ICWXP would be a direct competitor. But I don't really see that happening.
And I can't imagine that we're anywhere close to a glut of riffing products in the market place. ICWXP has room to grow substantially without taking any business from Rifftrax or CT or the legacy MST3K dvd sales.
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Post by ensignsmather13 on Oct 14, 2008 18:15:39 GMT -5
I can see where Mike might be ticked at Jim for the Film Crew situation, but I fail to see how his support of ICWXP really hurts Jim at all. Nobody's going to choose to not buy future MST3K box sets because they're spending their money on ICWXP instead. If anything they might create a few more MSTies that might up a few more $'s in Jim's pocket. Of course that would be different if Jim decided to reboot the MST3K franchise with a new cast, because they ICWXP would be a direct competitor. But I don't really see that happening. And I can't imagine that we're anywhere close to a glut of riffing products in the market place. ICWXP has room to grow substantially without taking any business from Rifftrax or CT or the legacy MST3K dvd sales. I didn't say the support would hurt Jim. I speculated whether it irked him. Regardless of whether these riffing shows would actually hurt MST3K sales (I don't believe they would either), Jim thought Film Crew was enough of a threat to take action. That's why I wondered whether he'd be bothered by the others, too. Just speculating. Anyway, sorry to get this thread so far off track...
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Post by pablum on Oct 14, 2008 21:50:14 GMT -5
Cinematic Titanic is no MST3K. Until somebody gives Joel and the crew the budget and crew size of MST3K it never will be. I think they're doing about as good as they can given the more limited means at their disposal for the project. The same goes for Rifftrax and Film Crew. The Wasp Woman especially to me seemed to be on par with the best of season 2 on Comedy Central.
I disagree with any notion that CT doesn't have the same spirit as MST3K. It feels like season 1 and 2 episodes to me. I felt the same way about the defunct Film Crew. I do not feel that Rifftrax is really in the spirit of Mystery Science Theater 3000 save for the shorts they do. New movies, big budget movies, just are not what MST3K was ever about.
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Post by wedestroymyths on Oct 14, 2008 22:03:58 GMT -5
I disagree with any notion that CT doesn't have the same spirit as MST3K. It feels like season 1 and 2 episodes to me. I felt the same way about the defunct Film Crew. I do not feel that Rifftrax is really in the spirit of Mystery Science Theater 3000 save for the shorts they do. New movies, big budget movies, just are not what MST3K was ever about. You know, I've been thinking about this alot, because I don't like the fact that I can't get into Rifftrax. The more I think about it, the more it comes down to film selection. I hadn't even been considering Film Crew, but I consider them every bit as enjoyable as CT... I guess for me it does come down to movie selection.
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Post by BilLumberg on Oct 14, 2008 23:08:13 GMT -5
I have to say that I prefer the old bad movies. I also feel that the Crow and Servo personas gave the riffers more freedom to be outrageous, and to enjoy certain liberties that would not be as accepted from a real person.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 15, 2008 8:28:45 GMT -5
I guess for me it does come down to movie selection. Same here. And it's one of the big reasons why CT has left me flat. I don't like the new movies that RiffTrax does, but I also don't like the this-is-a-form-of-torture, so-bad-their-bad movies that CT has done. I like movies that are cheesy, not terrible. BTW, I have found a way to like RiffTrax. I use it to watch new blockbuster movies that I wouldn't have seen otherwise. For instance, Spiderman. Not to get off on another tangent, but I though the Spiderman movies were TERRIBLE. The characters were unlikable, the action was lame, and the CGI spiderman was completely LAME--oooh cool look at how he swings through the air. I wonder how they...oh, right, they didn't. Anyway, I watched Spiderman 3 for the first (and only) time with RiffTrax on. And man I'm glad I did. It was the worst one yet! I'm going to watch Fantastic Four 2 that way, also. (Don't get me started on FF1--what a joke of a movie. Those losers weren't super heros! All they did was go around trying to clean up the trouble that THEY CAUSED! Everyone would have been better off if they all would have just quietly died in thier dumb space experiment.)
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Post by furdburns on Oct 24, 2008 20:15:41 GMT -5
Until two of the actors have robot puppets on their hands and the third is wearing a red jump suit, the ties that bind us here, together, will be fleeting.
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Post by fanliorel on Oct 27, 2008 13:47:23 GMT -5
Been out of the loop a while, so this is my first chime-in on this thread. Of course, I don't know really where to begin, because it's covered so much ground. But what I really want to do is talk about RT and CT in light of each other. I just got back from CT Live, which was my first time seeing either group live in action, so I'm really in the mood to dive into this, but I've already been thinking about it for a long time.
I can't say I'm a *huge* fan of either CT or RT (I haven't even looked at ICWXP yet, so I'll leave it unmentioned, but I will check it out sometime soon). I'm really happy that both exist, but neither of them are as good as MST.
Rifftrax was first, and for me, that's part of why I like it a little better. Mike and his crew stayed true to the riffing thing continually - they didn't abandon the concept, ever. Sure they all did some writing, and worked on some other projects, but even the other projects they worked on involved things in the same vein as moving riffing Obviously Mike continued fairly quickly with his Legend commentaries, but even things like Kevin's book took delight in mocking the movie industry itself, among other things, which is conceptually similar to MST. Then when opportunity presented itself, they took advantage of what they could do with MP3 commentary tracks. They were really ahead of the game as far as avoiding copyright problems, utilizing downloads, etc. Sure it can be a bit of a pain to sync up and play, but nothing's perfect.
All that said, Rifftrax has kind of let me down the last year or so. Quality-wise, it's just not what it could be. Kevin especially has let me down - he seems to be reading a script, or forcing his lines at least. But Mike and Bill have great deliveries, imo. But aside from that, other quality issues exist. It's becoming more of a big company. I like who ever referred to Mike in this thread as becoming the Riff-emporer or something (lost the quote in 6 pages), overseeing his riffing empire. They are pumping out so much material, with so many different people, that I just can't get into it anymore. Early on Rifftrax was finding its groove, and once it did, I simply LOVED Rifftrax for a while. But the well-picked episodes, well-written riffs, and well-executed dialogue were heavenly.
Cinematic Titanic is a different story, but parts of it are the same. First off, it came later than Rifftrax, and not until Rifftrax had been solidly successful for well over a year. In my book, as much as I love Joel and the crew, they simply saw the success of their former peers and decided to go for a piece of the pie. At any rate it certainly wasn't coincidence that all 5 decided to do the riffing thing again more than a decade after abandoning it, but not until Rifftrax had gotten popular and showed that the format was still viable.
Quality wise, I think this thread has nailed it. Cinematic Titanic is a little more esoteric, obviously uses older movies, and is not harshly antagonistic toward the movie they're watching. But it is also more scripted, and with less chemistry between the characters.
I just got done watching the CT Live in Minneapolis, and perceptions vary between people of course, but I was bummed to find them barely more energetic live than on film. They had a crowd to play off of (a crowd which laughed anytime anyone uttered so much as a syllable, so a very positively pre-disposed crowd) and great companions to play off of, yet they didn't. Each person said their line in turn, flipping their pages as they went. It was like watching an orchestra, seeing them flip pages at the same time, and each hit their piece on cue. There were a few moments where they looked like they were having a good time on stage, and where they did a little impromptu or let a flub up make them laugh with each other, but these were very few and sadly far between.
In fact, I will take this moment to say that while I enjoyed my evening, I was kinda disappointed overall with the CT gang live. I mean, it was good, but it was far from great. And isn't great what you expect from these geniuses? Ironically, the person who I thought was the best was the person I've always liked the least, and who's had the least experience: J. Elvis (Josh) Weinstein. He got into his lines, used body motions and language a lot, and generally seemed like he was having the most fun. I know Joel is reknowned for being deadpan, but his whole performance just seemed dead to me. He cracked a couple smiles; otherwise he was all business. Frank had fun a little more, but he seemed like he was more preoccupied with his timing than with his delivery. Mary Jo sounded the most like she was reading a script - again, I know she goes for a little more deadpan style, but not every line of hers was ripe for a deadpan treatment. She needed a lot more energy I thought, at least once in a while. Trace was pretty good, but he seemed to get less lines than everyone else. He wasn't bad, but he certainly wasn't in his Crow heyday. Overall I enjoyed the performance, and I'm glad I went, but I wish it hadn't been so scripted. They didn't seem to be having fun at all, and being back in their old stomping ground, I really thought they'd have a blast.
Out of all the former Brains working in CT/RT, I'd probably have to rank my top 3 riffers as: 1. Mike 2. Josh 3. Bill
Mike is no surprise, but both Josh and Bill have moved immensely far forward in the riffing world, IMO. Josh and Bill were two of my least favorite riffers in MST3K, yet now they are amongst my favorites. On the other hand, the once great quality of Kevin and Trace is faultering.
I guess that is kind of my main point. Those few who have not improved have gone downhill. For the most part, it's just not what it once was. Obviously CT and RT will never be the same as MST3K, but to me it seems like the participants know they were/are good at this, so they kind of take it for granted that they can do it, like flipping on a switch. But that's not the case. It's must take a lot of feel and practice to keep it seeming fresh, fun, and entertaining.
Anyway, love the thread and all your points Bob3k. I'll go che3ck out ICWXP sometime and see what I think.
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Post by quinnmartin on Oct 27, 2008 14:06:42 GMT -5
Overall I enjoyed the performance, and I'm glad I went, but I wish it hadn't been so scripted. I'm curious why you would expect it NOT to be so scripted? It's obvious from the DVD's that they're working the same tightly scripted riffing style that MST3K (post KTMA) and Rifftrax use. I think the main problem with CT is that they fail to create the illusion of not being highly scripted. Which I think is mostly due to their lack of experience riffing together and the inherent problems with having 5 people riff at once. With MST3K, the host segments (and probably the fact that two of the riffers were puppets) made it fairly easy to ignore the fact that the riffing was simply three people watching a movie and reading a tightly written script. When I watch MST, it feels like Crow, Tom, and Joel/Mike are seeing the movie for the first time along with you the viewer, and improvising the funny. Even though they're obviously not improvising, it's easy to suspend disbelief.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 27, 2008 14:43:26 GMT -5
Wow, great post, fanliorel!
quinnmartin, I think you answered your own question. As you say, it's not that they should be unscripted, but that the performance should feel unscripted. I'm beginning to think that they should go out and find a director that will whip them back into jovial, off-the-cuff, sounding shape.
Speaking of cast that you like better now--I've come to find that Bill Corbett is not only a funny, clever guy, but also a really good person. Check out the rifftrax blog (blog.rifftrax.com) for examples of both.
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Post by fanliorel on Oct 27, 2008 15:05:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I think you know what I meant. Obviously this is not impromptu riffing like KTMA, it's written ahead of time. But so was MST3K, and it certainly didn't sound like it was being read from a script. It sounded (for the most part) like a few guys kicking back and watching a movie for the first time, not like a few guys who are speaking lines on their cue.
CT need not sound so scripted, but it does, and that's a real shame. It's a big, perhaps the biggest, reason why I just can't enjoy it like I want to.
And yeah, you're right Bob - Bill is so much better than I ever thought. I'll go check out his blog sometime (clearly I need to browse more, look at all the things I miss). He shines through a lot of the Three Amigos rifftrax (rifftraxes? rifftraxi?) that I've heard, even outdoing Mike in many of them. Kevin just doesn't sound the same as he used to - he sounds too forced, or like he's trying too hard. And those who've talked about Rifftrax 'filler time' are right, and it's usually Kevin who goes off on those 'filler' tangents.
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Post by quinnmartin on Oct 27, 2008 15:27:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I think you know what I meant. Obviously this is not impromptu riffing like KTMA, it's written ahead of time. But so was MST3K, and it certainly didn't sound like it was being read from a script. It sounded (for the most part) like a few guys kicking back and watching a movie for the first time, not like a few guys who are speaking lines on their cue. CT need not sound so scripted, but it does, and that's a real shame. It's a big, perhaps the biggest, reason why I just can't enjoy it like I want to. Saturday's show was actually the first time it didn't feel like actors reading their lines on cue. It started out that way, sure, but soon after the credits were over it lost that feeling for me. But it's hard to say how much of that is the whole live experience, and the vibe that was in that room, vs. their actual performances. And I just watched Legacy of Blood and Wasp Women again this weekend, and while I don't enjoy them as much as Oozing Skull, they seemed to have increased the amount of interaction between the riffers. Which leads me to think that as they continue to riff together they'll become more loose and the performaces will become less scripted. At least the writing is top notch, which makes up for a lot of their performance weaknesses.
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