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Post by mummifiedstalin on Dec 31, 2008 1:45:52 GMT -5
Okay, I realized what's bothering me about CT.
Although MST, Rifftrax, and CT are all scripted, CT actually feels scripted. Maybe it's just the timing among five different people, but the riffs in CT always feel to me like the guys are reading their riffs, which, of course, they are. MST is reading them, too, but it actually seems like the rhythm was more natural in MST. It was like we could imagine that M/J and the bots were simply responding.
I think the problem in CT is that it's all one-liners. In most MST riffs, the three of them would either have daisy-chain riffs or play off of each other at times in ways that would suggest a kind of friendly interaction. In CT, it feels much more like it's individually written jokes that are just getting said by various people.
It's still funny, but it doesn't feel natural.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Dec 31, 2008 7:23:47 GMT -5
Haven't we run this topic to the ground already?
My apologies if that came off rude but it does seem we've gone 'round and 'round this subject (kind of like the board at the rifftrax site going on and on about the movie selection).
But to throw in my 2 cents again, while many people (fans or not) have stated this and I can hear some of the more mannered or practiced sounding delivery, it's not major thing nor has it been a distraction to me.
And I do get a feeling of interaction and rhythm. They click as a unit and what I hear is mostly smooth and not so overly scripted in delivery that they sound robotic.
I know I come off like a fan boy (or perhaps a sycophant. LOL) but this project really, and I mean really, works for me. MST is still king but this is a very close second and I personally find this complaint, oh, a bit exaggerated.
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Post by braindeadzombie on Dec 31, 2008 7:39:20 GMT -5
Okay, I realized what's bothering me about CT. Although MST, Rifftrax, and CT are all scripted, CT actually feels scripted. Maybe it's just the timing among five different people, but the riffs in CT always feel to me like the guys are reading their riffs, which, of course, they are. MST is reading them, too, but it actually seems like the rhythm was more natural in MST. It was like we could imagine that M/J and the bots were simply responding. I think the problem in CT is that it's all one-liners. In most MST riffs, the three of them would either have daisy-chain riffs or play off of each other at times in ways that would suggest a kind of friendly interaction. In CT, it feels much more like it's individually written jokes that are just getting said by various people. It's still funny, but it doesn't feel natural. Ok, you've discovered Cinematic Titanic is not Mystery Science Theater 3000 which is something I've been saying since I first saw the Oozing Skull. Congragulations? "M/J and the bots". Surely you mean J/M and the bots because if Mike comes first for you, well, why are you watching Cinematic Titanic? One last thing: The natural rythym of MST3k. KTMA, Season 1 or 2? No, you bring up the well honed and fully practiced Mike episodes {evidenced from your M/J and the bots comment} from season 5 and 6. Huh. Yeah, have you considered that the problems may be more of your own expectations or comparisons then Cinematic Titanic show itself?
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Post by MonsterX on Dec 31, 2008 9:44:24 GMT -5
Mummi was away from the board for a while and he might have missed some of the early discussion on this.
A lot of people including myself have shared your complaint. I think that having viewed them all they have been improving on this though as they find their grove. One thing that may be contributing to this is that they live in different places and write remotely instead of all together in a big group like with MST.
They’ve been getting better about that though and I expect that they will continue to do so.
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Post by Captain Hygiene on Dec 31, 2008 10:30:10 GMT -5
A lot of people including myself have shared your complaint. I think that having viewed them all they have been improving on this though as they find their grove. I watched the first three releases and felt they got a bit better each time, and I will soon be watching the Christmas episode. I'm assuming that holds up as well. Seems like it's the opposite of MST, which started off incredibly loose because it was ad-libbed, but felt more like real interactions. Now they know where to put the jokes, but the interactions have suffered. Also, how dare you put M before J.
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Post by quinnmartin on Dec 31, 2008 11:28:54 GMT -5
The main problem is that there was never an episode of MST3K that was as highly scripted and as riff filled as the CT episodes that was done by a riffing team that had only riffed together for a handful of episodes.
Even when the cast changed, it was only one at a time. When Mike took over, Trace and Kevin had been riffing for years and they'd spent years developing the 3-riffers style.
The CT cast have never riffed together as a group before CT#1 and none of them had ever done riffing with 4 other people before CT#1. It's bordering on absurd to think they could achieve anything close to the level of naturalness that MST3K had by the time they were riffing scripts with that many jokes.
In other words, imagine how Joel, Trace, and Josh would have sounded trying to perform the season 3 script for Star Force when they did it early in the KTMA season.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Dec 31, 2008 11:41:57 GMT -5
Sorry Mumms, I didn't think - you did miss most of this subject. A thought - while I love him, I always felt that Mike could sometimes come off a bit stiff and scripted with his delivery as well. It's more pronounced with Rifftrax (The slapping each other after a pun bit) still none of that, or the times CT comes off scripted ever became so noticable that it became an issue. It's kind of like Bill's early puppetry skills, people would talk about it and I'd be like, "Uh yeah, so what?" I guess as long as I'm laughing you can puppet poorly or speak too deliberately all you want, I wont care
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Post by pablum on Jan 1, 2009 19:17:29 GMT -5
I agree that Cinematic Titanic does sound scripted. But watching some early MST3K eps (or perhaps even episode 1009 Hamlet) would make you rethink your notion of quality in CT.
The way I see it, I do not consider Cinematic Titanic (nor Film Crew or Rifftrax) a replacement for MST3K. These fan-funded, internet exclusive projects will obviously never get the budget, time, and attention a bigger television production would get.
It seems Joel and company would like to directly take on MST3K in our minds with their recent take on Santa Claus Conquers the Martian. Close but no cigar. A valiant effort none the less which I will continue to support.
The CT crew did loosen up a little more during Santa Claus by having them laugh at each others jokes throughout the episode. And I imagine the riff delivery and interactions will get better as the episodes go on. If MST3K was as refined as CT was this early in its life, the creators would not have felt as negatively about their early episodes as they've stated in the past.
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Post by mummifiedstalin on Jan 1, 2009 21:14:53 GMT -5
Yeah, MJ, I'm late to the game. I kinda disappeared for a year. Besides, I just saw a live show, so some of this stuff is fresh for me. I hadn't really paid much attention to CT, apart from casually watching their shows once, so now's my chance to chime in. Sorry to be irritating. After rolling my eyes at countless "Joel vs. Mike" rehashings, I know exactly how this must have seemed. My apologies. But apparently I've opened some old wounds without intending to, as evidenced by this: Ok, you've discovered Cinematic Titanic is not Mystery Science Theater 3000 which is something I've been saying since I first saw the Oozing Skull. Congragulations? "M/J and the bots". Surely you mean J/M and the bots because if Mike comes first for you, well, why are you watching Cinematic Titanic? One last thing: The natural rythym of MST3k. KTMA, Season 1 or 2? No, you bring up the well honed and fully practiced Mike episodes {evidenced from your M/J and the bots comment} from season 5 and 6. Huh. Yeah, have you considered that the problems may be more of your own expectations or comparisons then Cinematic Titanic show itself? First, remember that everyone's entitled to an opinion. Just because we all say something doesn't mean that we all deserve snarky responses. Disagree all you want; that's why I bring this up on a discussion board. But you quickly jump into almost accusing me of having some secret agenda here. So my caveat: I've bought every CT episode and plan to buy all the rest. I went to a live show and had a fantastic time. I laughed harder at _Blood of the Vampires_ than I can remember laughing at any of the MST's I've watched repeatedly over the last however many years, both Joel and Mike, at the very least because it was all new stuff. I'll buy every show they ever make in the future, and I'll see them live every chance I get. There's absolutely nothing in my comments that suggests that I dislike them or am trying to put them down. As fans of all this stuff, we hash out our reactions. That's what we do. To respond to someone as if their opinion is hostile to your own is out of place in a community like this. Of course it's a comparison to MST. That was the point of my original post. By comparison, CT feels scripted (and that comes out to me as namely one-liners and 5 different riffers who all have to get worked in). Something was bothering me, that was it, I posted to see if anyone felt the same way, some did, and some didn't. Sorry it upset you. (And scripted doesn't necessarily mean bad. Beethoven is scripted and jazz is improvisational...but I like both in different ways. Same here.)
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Post by Mr. Atari on Jan 2, 2009 0:26:29 GMT -5
I love all of the incarnations for different reasons. But there are two complaints I have about CT that diminish the enjoyment level for me. I've been wanting to express them for some time, so I'll back mummi's play here.
One complaint is the scripted, wooden feel of the lines (as I've mentioned since The Oozing Skull). It's just too noticeable for me. Sure the jokes are funny, but the delivery is distracting. So I just remind myself that a) they're writing from different parts of the country instead of all at once in the same room and b) they're writing for live performances as much as for a DVD. And then I relax and let it go.
The other is the choice of films. The technicolor, out of focus, grotesque '60s and '70s low-budget horror has got to be my least favorite genre of film ever (except maybe for the new wave of torture-horror garbage of the last 10 years or so). And yet 3 of the 6 CT releases have featured this crap (and a fourth was just a re-hash of something they'd already done). I know they are limited by rights and budget, but I just can't enjoy the humor when I hate the experience of watching the film.
Call me names if you like, but that's how I feel.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Jan 2, 2009 9:40:28 GMT -5
Mr. Atari I've noticed that's like the 3rd post that you've closed like that, has someone been calling you names? Y'want me to rough ;em up for ya hu? No one should be name calling, you paid you money and you have a right to express your thoughts. What you and everyone here thinks and feels is valid. Course I might tease you for that opinion... It's just my way (and Mummy, your right and I hope I didn't come too irritated? It was a mild exasperation at best)
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Post by quinnmartin on Jan 2, 2009 9:41:56 GMT -5
I love all of the incarnations for different reasons. But there are two complaints I have about CT that diminish the enjoyment level for me. I've been wanting to express them for some time, so I'll back mummi's play here. One complaint is the scripted, wooden feel of the lines (as I've mentioned since The Oozing Skull). It's just too noticeable for me. Sure the jokes are funny, but the delivery is distracting. So I just remind myself that a) they're writing from different parts of the country instead of all at once in the same room and b) they're writing for live performances as much as for a DVD. And then I relax and let it go. The other is the choice of films. The technicolor, out of focus, grotesque '60s and '70s low-budget horror has got to be my least favorite genre of film ever (except maybe for the new wave of torture-horror garbage of the last 10 years or so). And yet 3 of the 6 CT releases have featured this crap (and a fourth was just a re-hash of something they'd already done). I know they are limited by rights and budget, but I just can't enjoy the humor when I hate the experience of watching the film. Call me names if you like, but that's how I feel. I completely agree with both of your points. But I have seen improvement, so I'll continue to support them. But they are a long way from capturing what made MST3K so great. After seeing them live, though, I have a much better appreciation for what they're doing though and have enjoyed the DVD's more. At this point they're definitely in the mode of a band you have to see live to really appreciate. For me, at least.
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Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
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Posts: 15,420
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Post by Torgo on Jan 2, 2009 13:29:41 GMT -5
Mr. Atari I've noticed that's like the 3rd post that you've closed like that, has someone been calling you names? Y'want me to rough ;em up for ya hu? That would be me. Mr. Atari will always be Ms. Hello Kitty to me.
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Post by Chuck on Jan 2, 2009 16:09:46 GMT -5
Mr. Atari I've noticed that's like the 3rd post that you've closed like that, has someone been calling you names? Y'want me to rough ;em up for ya hu? That would be me. Mr. Atari will always be Ms. Hello Kitty to me. Just don't call him late for dinner.
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Post by Mr. Atari on Jan 3, 2009 15:21:35 GMT -5
So as an experiment, last night I showed Mrs. Atari (who's a peripheral MSTie, at best, and knows nothing about this debate) the first ten minutes of "The Doomsday Machine" followed by the short, "Are You Ready For Marriage". She laughed at both, and afterwards I asked her what differences she noticed.
The first words out of her mouth: "In the first one they just seemed to be waiting for their turn to make a joke."
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