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Post by Mod City on Sept 16, 2009 13:38:38 GMT -5
I don't know how many other boxing fans are on this board. In fact, I don't remember ever running into any since Van Hagar was around. Regardless, if there are any out there beside me, feel free to comment here on all facets of the sport. If the thread remains a lonely place, well, so be it I would prefer any MMA discussion be taken to its own thread, or at the very least be kept to a minimum. They are different sports, after all, and I'm not interested in breaking down the "boxing vs. MMA" discussion here. It just results in people fighting, so to speak. In any case, this weekend sees the Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Juan Manuel Marquez fight. Mayweather has been gone for two years after leaving the sport at the top of his game. Marquez is an action fighter with some great fights on his resume. It's all a setup fight - the winner gets Manny Pacquiao, currently considered the top fighter in the sport - in a big fight down the road. Personally, I kind of want Marquez to win this first fight because I really dislike Mayweather. But then again, Pacquiao against Mayweather could be blisteringly good. Here's hoping it's a good fight either way.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Sept 17, 2009 0:49:08 GMT -5
I haven't kept up with it though I'm interested in the fight Saturday. I know the Russian's have overtaken the Heavyweight division but aside from that I'm mostly in the dark (I got sick of all the multiple champs... get regulated, have one top pro organization)
I used to box when I was a teenager, my dad was a boxer in the Navy and we used to watch and talk boxing all the time. So I'm old school. Last time I really got into it was when Big George Forman won the title for the last time.
My favorite boxer, though he never lived up to his talents, was Max Baer. The man had an incredible right hand that would snap a guys head back like nothing I've ever seen. But he liked to clown around, didn't take it seriously and after he killed that guy he struggled (many opponents said that if he was cleaning your clock, he'd suddenly pull back as if the memory of what happened would hit him)
Cinderella Man was complete BS - Max wasn't the devil and Braddock was no angel and in truth that was the most boring fight in championship history. Max just stood there, Braddock couldn't do a damn thing but at least he tried. Baer finally got going, striking at will, but the refs took away rounds he won on cheap technicalities (that they'd never call in other championship bouts)
Anyway, I watched the sport, though it is corrupt and brutal. Have you seen the documentary, Assault in the Ring - not the best doc, but the what happened in the ring was grotesque and ruined that other kids life (literally)
Oh, and I don't know what MMA is, no danger of me discussing it. lol
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Post by Mod City on Sept 17, 2009 9:50:19 GMT -5
Very cool, MJ. I've never boxed but would like to try it just to say I went three minutes in the ring. Brutal is the right word to describe the sport – the training alone of the world-class fighters is on an Olympic level. Can't imagine what it's like to be in that kind of shape.
The state of the sport is kind of ugly. Multiple (worthless) sanctioning bodies, shady promoters and a fan base that's waning to mixed marital arts. It's enough to turn off even the most die-hard of fans. There's still something about a really great fight – and the really do still happen, you just have to watch a lot of average ones to find the great ones – that can't be captured by a lot of other sports.
And yeah, Assault In The Ring is an interesting watch. You have to be careful who you trust, that's for sure. Very sad on many levels.
If you get a chance, I recommend catching up on HBO's 24/7 series, which follows two boxers (in this case Marquez and Mayweather) as they go through training camp leading up to the fight. I had never watched one before this latest edition, and it's quite good. It will get you in the mood to watch a boxing match.
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Post by Mod City on Sept 20, 2009 13:14:12 GMT -5
Well, Mayweather thoroughly whipped Marquez from one end of the ring to the other for a unanimous decision victory. The guy was just too big (he came in two pounds over the agreed catch weight, but he's naturally the bigger guy anyway), too fast and too strong. Unbelievably impressive for a guy who's been out of the sport for two years.
Now Pacquiao has to fight Miguel Cotto for a shot at Mayweather (I thought Pacquiao automatically got the winner of this fight, but I was incorrect). That fight's in June, and I had Pacquiao winning it, but I don't know if it will matter. Mayweather looks unstoppable, though I would like to see what a true welterweight like Shane Mosely could get done against him.
Next weekend is Vitali Klitschko against Chris Areola. Heavyweights aren't as good as they used to be. Maybe this can rekindle some interest if it excites.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Sept 23, 2009 0:39:28 GMT -5
They were showing Mayweathers old fights and damn, that guy doesn't miss!
Sometimes there's so much hype that reality gets buried. Ali, for example, wasn't God almighty. In the 60s he was, he was incredible in the 60s, but that forced layoff took something away from him. In that 2nd Ali/Frazier fight, Ali was missing a lot of punches (in truth, I think Joe won the fight by a hair. At best it was a draw) and looking at his old fights I notice that he often misses more than I thought he did. Don't get me wrong, he was a great fighter, tenacious and he never quit - but 60s Ali would have kicked 70s Ali's ass.
But Floyd, he really lives up the the hype. Speed, strength, he adapts and shifts if things aren't going right - and the guy is incredibly accurate. I don't know what his lifetime percentage is, but from what I saw it's got to be high.
In Sat. fight the difference in punches landed was obscenely slanted in Maywether's favor. From what I saw, it would take perfection to beat this guy. You couldn't let up or slip up for a moment.
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Post by Mod City on Sept 23, 2009 1:35:49 GMT -5
Mayweather is the real deal. And though I'm not really a fan, I admit his skill level is of the highest order. I'm still waiting to see what happens when he really gets hit, though. But his defense and quickness are so imposing I don't really see it happening. I guess that's what makes it exciting if/when it happens Ali was a great fighter, but I've always felt he was bigger and more important as a social figure than a boxer. Like you said, he wasn't the same fighter in his second incarnation, though he still commanded much the same adoration. His refusal to fight in Vietnam and ban from the sport made him a bigger name in the long run - and there's certainly no shame in that. Either way, he benefited from hype. So does Mayweather, but his weight is all in his his fight. The guy just looks that much better than everyone else in the sport.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Sept 23, 2009 3:42:43 GMT -5
The one fight I didn't see was the one with Oscar, I heard that De Lahoya was doing well for 6 rounds before it went south. But I've never seen the fight so I don't know what he did, what tactics he used. But your right, I never did see Mayweather take a truly great punch in any of those fights. There were good shots but nothing that rocked him (unless he just takes punches exceptionally well?)
So yeah, nothing like when Foreman landed some heavy blows an Ali and Ali said it took everything he had to keep his head clear and stay standing. How would Mayweather stand up to a fighter that could hit like that? (in his weight class of course). And I gotta give Ali props, he fought some strong fighters. I remember some real doozies with Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers and the like (both those fights are hotly debated to this day).
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Post by Mighty Jack on Sept 23, 2009 4:20:25 GMT -5
As for the recent Heavyweights, I never could keep them straght. I remember that giant 7 foot guy, Valuesomething or other.
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Post by Mod City on Sept 23, 2009 10:47:28 GMT -5
Yeah, the heavyweights these days are dominated by guys from the former Eastern bloc. Valuev is a monster, but it's mostly a show of size and strength (which right now is enough to do well in the division). The Klitchko brothers are very good, but their European style isn't very exciting, even though they can punch with the best of them. A Klitchko hasn't been in a great, exciting fight since Vitali lost to Lennox Lewis on cuts (that was the last really good heavyweight fight, in my opinion). The American hope, Areola, looks a bit soft, but he has a punch and the will. There are others, just nobody that can galvanize the fanbase, like an Ali or a Tyson.
Ali has a pretty impressive fight resume. Shavers and Norton both his like a freight train, and his upset of Foreman is still one of the most impressive feats in boxing. No doubt, the guy could take a heck of a punch and keep his head about him. We may not see Mayweather really get hit until he fights someone more naturally his size – like Mosely. Pacquiao is a good puncher, but he's another smaller guy who relies on accumulated punches to wear guys down. With Mayweather, you may need just one lucky shot, but good luck landing it.
Oh, and Oscar did OK against Floyd. But it was still obviously Mayweather's fight. Oscar was too old and too slow.
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Post by Mod City on Sept 27, 2009 12:17:35 GMT -5
Well, the elder Klitchko defeated Arreola when the challenger's corner threw in the towel late in the fight. Arreola was game, but he just couldn't get inside. Klitchko kept picking him off from jabbing range and nailing him with straight rights and quick left hooks.
Klitchko looked really good for a 48-year-old, but I still think if someone gets in there and is actually successful at hitting him, they might have a good host. That jab is too long and he follows it up so well.
Looks like the heavyweights are back in limbo. For now.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Sept 28, 2009 14:01:36 GMT -5
If that represents some of the best of the heavyweights, the wightclass is in pretty sad shape. He might be quick with that arm, but in the old days if a guy had left his hand hanging at his side...? Someone with a lightning fast right cross, who had great footwork, say a Joe Frazier, would have taken his head off wiithin 3 rounds.
They used to call boxing the 'sweet science' but their was no science there, no boxing skill, just guys throwing punches.
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Post by Mod City on Sept 29, 2009 20:02:04 GMT -5
That's an interesting observation, because the Klitchkos used to be known as very European in style. Very upright - standing straight up and down - with their hands high. Vitali looked more like Roy Jones Jr. or Naseem Hamed, both of whom used to fight with their left (or both hands) down around their waste, something that was considered more Western in style (if not fundamentally wrong). And I agree, a good right cross should be able to beat him. But he's got that jab. He's also 6 foot 8 with a wingspan like a jumbo jet, and not many fighters from the old days had that kind of stature, speed, power and conditioning. Frazier was an awesome, smart fighter, but he is barely six feet tall (if he's that tall). There's no way to tell, obviously, but I don't see Frazier getting anywhere near him to hit him. Still, even though he's not the most beautiful fighter ever, he is easily the most skilled of the current heavyweights. Put him in there with another heavyweight who really knows what he's doing, and you will see a good fight. I'll refer to his fight with Lewis again here. He was comparable in size, reach and quickness. Oh, and my above post is wrong. Vitali is 38, not 48. I guess that was probably obvious, though
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Post by Mighty Jack on Sept 30, 2009 0:14:13 GMT -5
You never can tell, Frazier was dominated by Forman (course he was going blind by that time) so a big guys did give him problems. But in his prime he had great side to side movement, could cut a ring in half, and bob and weave so well he could make a guy like Ali miss punches - while countering with that crushing 'left' hand*.
Kitch, like Foreman could have overpowered Joe with massive blows, but overall I think the top ranked fighters from the 70s, on up to Holmes would have killed Vatali.
But this is based on this one fight I saw, in which I didn't see true skill from Kitchko, he has some speed with both feet and hands but no real technique. He leans on his size a lot, but a smart, wiley fighter would find away through that. I didn't see brain, just brawn.
'course I can't judge him from one fight, but both these guys, with all their victories... I was expecting better.
* Edit: I keep mentioning Frazier 'right' hand, which was good, but it was his left that was the dominating punch (so I changed it in this thread). Sorry for the mix up, sometimes my old brain gets things crosseyed.
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Post by Mod City on Oct 1, 2009 11:13:00 GMT -5
While we let the heavyweights sit and stew a while, there is a fight coming up this weekend in the super middleweight division. Apparently Allan Green, 28-1 (20) and Tarvis Simms 25-0 (11) will square off on Showtime this weekend. At least, that's as close as I can figure out. According to various Internet outlets, Green was supposed to fight Victor Oganov, 28-2 (28), but an injury forced the change. It's not that big a deal, as Green would likely be favored to win either bout, but it highlights a problem I often have with this sport: figuring out just who the heck is fighting who when. Matchups can change in very short order, and if you're not paying attention right up to fight time, you might not see the pair of fighters you were prepared to see. Take a big PPV card that has three or even four undercard fights in addition to the main event. Sometimes, even if the main event a really compelling fight, my buddies and I will want to know who else is fighting on the same broadcast so we can see if it's really worth the money. You'd think in this day and age of lighting-fast communication this would be a breeze to find out, but it's not. Sometimes even a main event will change without you knowing it (that rarely happens on PPV, but it does occasionally on regular HBO or Showtime fights). With this fight, outlets like The Ring Online are still reporting the fight as Green vs. Oganov, while various other news sources have already reported that Oganov is out with an injury. www.boxrec.com, one of the most useful boxing sites anywhere, has Green tentatively fighting Simms with a note suggesting the matchup is pending commission approval but goes into virtually no detail. I'll actually be out of town this weekend, so I won't get to watch this fight. It's too bad, too, because super middleweights often provide some of the best shows. And MJ, reading the latest issue of The Ring, I noted a review for Thrilla In Manilla, an HBO documentary on Joe Frazier and his reflections on his trilogy with Ali. It sounds riveting. I added it to my Netflix queue.
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Post by Mod City on Oct 15, 2009 13:06:32 GMT -5
Well, it looks like Green handily defeated Simms by unanimous decision. Not too surprising, when you get down to it. Green is one of the more respected fighters in the super middleweight division. Speaking of middleweights, this weekend sees the beginning of the Super Six World Boxing Classic. It's a round-robin style tournament that will pit six of the best fighters in the weight class against each other. This weekend starts with Arthur Abraham vs. Jermain Taylor and Carl Froch vs. Andre Dirrell. Here's a basic breakdown: sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=4558946The tournament is drawn out to help ensure the fighters stay healthy and nobody has to pull out because of training injuries, etc. So this will be a long engagement. No belt at stake or anything like that, just the pride of coming out on top of five other guys who want to knock your block off. It sounds like a heck of a cool idea. And frankly, the boxing game could use some fresh ideas. And arguably the best part is that its not a PPV type event. At least the early rounds aren't. Could be some good fights. A recommended watch if you have access to Showtime!
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