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Post by caucasoididiot on Feb 19, 2010 10:15:47 GMT -5
On subtitles: Subs aren't always perfect either. I had to switch to the dub on Zebraman because their were times when the subs made no sense. So I'd referr to the dub and, "Oh that's what he means". lol - . . . I wish I could speak Japanese so I could watch these and Kurosawa without the subs or dubs. I've watched so many translations of Ikiru and Seven Samurai It makes me wonder what's the better wording (for example - should it be Brigands or Bandits or something else in Seven Samurai Yeah, I prefer subs in general, but a poor translation can ruin either. Most foreign releases in Japan are subtitled (even MST3K: The Movie!) and sometimes I'd see translations there that seemed really incomplete and misleading. I've heard that the translators typically only have a day to do each one though, so I can sympathize. It's especially tricky going from a vague language like Japanese to a precise one like English; if you translated strictly, most of it would be in passive voice. Thanks for the link about archetypes, I enjoyed reading it. I'd like to know how much of Miyazaki's depiction of spirits is from Japanese folklore, and how much is from his head. Soot sprites (also in Totoro)? Walking radishes? Dancing chicks with lotus leaves for hats? I eat that stuff up. I like your thoughts about Bou, Yubaba, and mamagon. I hadn't heard of mamagon before except in a Godzilla film. That was the one with the cartoonist who put his girlfriend's dress pattern on the "Mamagon" monster, right? I can't place the guest monster though. Yeah, that was also going into how it overlaps the kyoikumama (education mother) thing, and how that can turn it into a real love/hate relationship. There the relationship is with a gitlfriend, but likely with the idea that he was drawn to her as a substitute mom. As for Miyazaki's character design, It seems to be his own but inspired by tradition. Foxes are popular in traditional stories (they crop up in Kurosawa's Dreams for instance), and there's also something called a kappa that's a sort of frog/turtle combo. Hearn's Kwaidan does have a story about disembodied head demons that may have inspired Yubaba's three, and there's also a story of faceless demons. PS: Daikon radishes crop up in the old ukiyo-e prints as a racy image, because they were taken to resemble a woman's thigh. I think Miyazaki was being playful when he turned that around and made the radish god into such a hulk! What do you know, Gutenberg has Kwaidan: www.gutenberg.org/etext/1210I love the '60s movie adaptation too, especially the Mimi-nashi Houichi segment. Speaking of the Ghibli Museum: there are short animated films that are shown at the museum that are only avaliable for viewing there. These include some by Miyazaki himself, including a sequel (!!!) to Totoro called "Mei and the Kittenbus" (I'll let you guess the plot). Miyazaki hasn't had these films made avaliable commercially becuase he adamantly wants them to be not-for-profit gifts for children, no strings attached - however, the advent of Youtube and the free sharing of video has reportedly made him think about letting the films out for free over the net. They were showing Kujira-tori when I was there. It was a fun little piece where some kids build a boat (out of furniture, if I remember rightly) and put out to sea in search of whales. Heh heh, don't tell Greenpeace! I'd be of two minds on his posting them online. I'd love to see the others of course, but I also like the idea of there being special content you actually have to "make the pilgrimage" to see. Maybe if segments are retired from the museum after a few years and then go online. I was hunting around YouTube for Wallace & Gromit dubbed into Japanese, but couldn't find any. I'd consider trying to post my Japanese versions of Cracking Contraptions, but then Toshiba EMI would probably send ninja to my house. By the way, we had to wait months for the W&G movie, but they used the time to really craft the sub-titles. They even developed a (legible!) dog-bone font for it. For those who've seen Lupin III, how does it compare with the others? Does it really feel like a Miyazaki film?
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Post by afriendlychicken on Feb 19, 2010 18:44:18 GMT -5
The original Hing Kong release of the Heroic Trio has sloppy subs. In one bit a character says she needs to get dressed up before the pass arrives. It took me a while to figure out that she meant "the press". Still much preferred to the hacked up, poorly translated American release. I wish I could speak Japanese so I could watch these and Kurosawa without the subs or dubs. I've watched so many translations of Ikiru and Seven Samurai It makes me wonder what's the better wording (for example - should it be Brigands or Bandits or something else in Seven Samurai You should check out the UK Kurosawa site. They have a whole page dedicated to Hong Kong dvd releases. Specifically, on the "The worlds most awful subtitles" section. I have the KAMEN RIDER movie collection box set from Hong Kong and I have to literally rearrange half the subtitles listed, and a few, like "Surfing is father crying"(WTH!) are completely untranslatable. On SEVEN SAMURAI, Donald Richie has mentioned that Brigand would be the closest English translation of what they're called, but bandits would be a simpler subtitle to read. That is the problem with translations from one language to another, so most subtitles tend to simplify what's being said. That's why I find the 2 different subtitle options on THRONE OF BLOOD fascinating. They both work, but give very different viewing experiences.
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Post by caucasoididiot on Feb 19, 2010 21:45:59 GMT -5
I haven't seen the film for quite a while, but the Japanese wiki on it calls them 野武士. This would probably be pronounced yabushi. It doesn't appear in my dictionary as such, but literally would mean something like "warrior in the field." But then the next question is how we as English speakers distinguish a brigand from a bandit anyway. What little translation I've done convinces me that it's an art all it's own. It's bad enough in closely related European languages, but even there fully recreating all the cultural associations is probably an impossible ideal. By the way, I found a couple of pictures of daikon-ashi or "radish-legs," the term for the occasional multi-lobed daikon. I'm betting the Ghibli animators were looking at such when they did the radish-god. matiuke.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2007-10-13livedoor.blogimg.jp/yae38194/imgs/3/d/3d6424dd.JPG
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Post by spackle on Feb 20, 2010 9:20:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the multitude of thoughts and links! I've been checking them all out. Great stuff. You're right about which Godzilla has mamagon- Godzilla vs Gigan, also with Ghidorah and Anguiras and aliens who look like human-size cockroaches. In the dubbed version I have, you'd never know that was his girlfriend. They talk about her as his mother. But she's way too young. Funny you should bring up disembodied head demons. I was just reading about this www.imdb.com/title/tt0122318/ last night. I hadn't related it to Yubaba's three hench-heads, though. Neat daikon pics. They sort of hold the same place as mandrakes in European culture. Though mandrakes may be more associated with witchcraft. I know not of what you speak. Please enlighten me! I googled Mimi-nashi Houichi, and found a few things, but not a 60's movie. The Kwaidan book looks interesting. I have lots of mythology books- I may just have to get a copy. I see Amazon has it. Foxes- Nausicaa's cute little shoulder companion was called a somethingorother-fox, wasn't it? Are there kappas in Miyazaki films? I like both frogs and turtles, I'd like to see a kappa. I found a picture on the wiki page, but I'd like to see a Miyazaki kappa. I love his images. The frogs in Spirited Away are great. As for languages, that's the big heartbreak with movies/books in a language you don't understand. You're totally dependent on whoever translated it. I, too, go through all the gyrations of watching/listening to whatever translations I can get, hoping that they sort of average out and give me at least a gestalt of the original story. And combine that with the undubbed version so you know what the original performance was like. That being said, bad subtitles are a great source of humor, too. The Heroic Trio is a case in point. Whaaaa?
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Post by caucasoididiot on Feb 20, 2010 10:35:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the multitude of thoughts and links! You're welcome, but it's mostly just spring cleaning of my head. Sometimes you find the neatest stuff on top of someone else's trash pile. When I first saw the title Fei taugh mo neuih I thought it was Gaelic! Yeah, the synopsis there sounds like what I remember of the Japanese tales, including the element of vampirism. I used to see a lot of interesting Chinese films for rent in Japan, but my kanji is way too weak to get more than the gist of subtitles and so I never checked them out. Unfortunately I still haven't seem Nausicaä, or really about half of Miyazaki's films. If there ever was a kappa I missed it. There's a whole range of imagery of them from old scrolls to modern cartoony ones. My real name mispronounces to something close to kappa in Japanese, so I've kind of become a connoisseur. Here's the movie: www.imdb.com/title/tt0058279/One problem with Japanese is that there are a couple of different ways to phoneticize it into English, which can make searches tricky. Mimi-nashi Houichi is "Houichi the Earless," which you may have heard of (I should translate more, sorry). Houichi is blind minstrel whose fame in relating "The Tale of the Heike" lands him in a tricky situation. The sequence of the suicide of the Heike women is just unforgettable. Another problem that dubbing Japanese presents is that the language is full of little phrases that don't have much meaning. You say them to be polite and sort of acknowledge that you're paying attention. The really riffable dub of Gamera vs Guiron was a stellar example of the result. Heh heh, "hench-heads!" I like that. Edit: There's a YouTuber who's in the process of posting Kwaidan. The link below is the defeat of the Heike at Dan no Ura, leading to the suicide. Gorgeously haunting, and not a spoiler as it's only the prologue of Houichi's own story. www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlS_sJr14Jk&feature=PlayList&p=94E54D63B2E2302E&index=8Here's another clip that starts a little earlier. It lacks the subs but is well worth it to see the battle itself: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsxo3pFpBYI&feature=related
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Post by spackle on Feb 20, 2010 12:20:40 GMT -5
I just put both Kaidan and Dreams at the top of My Netflix list. Funny about your name and kappa. You're a creature from folklore! I like naming my pets interesting names from folklore and movies. I named one Kodama after seeing Princess Mononoke (and my name on another board is based on Kodama). Kodama's buddy is called Yula, after a little flying, telepathic gnome from the French animation Time Masters. Just saw your edit with the youtube links. Thanks!
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Post by afriendlychicken on Feb 20, 2010 20:47:20 GMT -5
I first saw Kwaidan in 1992 when I bought the Criterion laserdisc. It's a great film. If you like film as an art form, which I do, you'll love this movie. Besides, my favorite Japanese actor, Takashi Shimura, has a role as one of the priests in the Hoichi, the Earless section. My favorite story is the first one, The Black Hair. I don't remember any Kappa in the Miyazaki movies, although I think Kurosawa makes an allusion to the Kappa in Rhapsody In August, during the waterfall scene. Edit: Thinking about it, didn't one of boys in Rhapsody In August dress up as a Kappa? I haven't watched the movie in around 5 years so I'm a little vague on what he dressed up as. I think it was a Kappa, right?
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Post by spackle on Feb 20, 2010 23:59:52 GMT -5
I was inspired to watch a Miyazaki tonight, so I watched Nausicaa. Her little shoulder companion is Teto, a fox-squirrel. Very cute. There's also a fox squirrel in Laputa, isn't there?
One thing struck me, we haven't talked about Miyazaki's contraptions- flying machines, war machines, a cat bus.... I especially like his flying machines. In Nausicaa, Laputa, and Howl, the airships are amazing- totally impossible but fascinating. And the castle in Howl has lots of odd shapes that move over each other, it sort of reminds me of the Om creatures in Nausicaa. What else?
I'm looking forward to Kwaidan. From what I saw on Youtube, I think I'll like it a lot. I haven't seen Rhapsody in August yet.
BTW, someone asked at some point if Lupin seemed like a Miyazaki film. I'd say... not so much. There was somewhat of a Miyazaki feel, but it wasn't as beautifully done as his later works.
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Post by caucasoididiot on Feb 21, 2010 8:54:00 GMT -5
I haven't seen Rhapsody in August either I'm afraid, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit. Is there a still around? I remembered another popular mythical creature, the tengu: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TenguThis thread got me wanting to see Kwaidan again last night, but I couldn't turn up my copy. I ended up watching Matango instead, which is a great example of what friendlychicken was saying about bad dubbing. Attack of the Mushroom People is famously bad--usually listed as utter 'bot fodder--but Matango is a solid little horror film. I love Miyazaki's contraptions, both the wholly imaginary and the more plausible. One reason I chose the opening of Kiki to link to in my original post is that great '20s vintage airliner that goes by. I can't name it offhand, but I think it's a real machine that caught his eye.
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Post by spackle on Feb 21, 2010 9:43:46 GMT -5
Gaah! I was just googling "kappa rhapsody august" for images, and found this www.kappa-coo.com/ It's Studio Ghibli, though not Miyazaki. Cute kappa. The tengu make me think of Yubaba wrapping her cloak around her shoulders and flying away. Do you think that might be tengu-inspired? I enjoyed Matango despite the bad dubbing. Visually, it was quite horrific- unless you're into fungi.
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Post by caucasoididiot on Feb 21, 2010 11:43:37 GMT -5
You beat me to the draw on Coo; I found it in pretty much the same way. The tengu make me think of Yubaba wrapping her cloak around her shoulders and flying away. Do you think that might be tengu-inspired? Could well be. I'd always thought "Dracula," but given that Miyazaki was using traditional elements for the Abura-ya world that may have been more what he had in mind. It's interesting that Zeniba's cottage is then European style. Indeed, I never though Mushroom People was the total train wreck is has the reputation of being, but it is much better with the original soundtrack and a clean print.
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Post by spackle on Feb 21, 2010 19:41:47 GMT -5
It's interesting that Zeniba's cottage is then European style. I could read all sorts of stuff into that, most of which probably wasn't intended. Though you do have to travel across water to get there, since the tracks were flooded. Great cottage, BTW. I wouldn't mind living there. Especially if I had a hopping lamp.
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Post by caucasoididiot on Feb 22, 2010 0:42:24 GMT -5
I could go for that, though I'd want to spend weekends back at the Abura-ya, provided I was a guest. I really miss the baths.
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Post by The Mad Plumber on Feb 23, 2010 10:07:09 GMT -5
Given a little analysis of my tastes and culture, maybe I would define myself as being a moderator or less-than-moderator appreciator of anime. I noted in other threads, however, that I can easily dismiss the art form based on what I observe from the fanatics. I also get pretty miffed at those who can do nothing but complain about English dubbing, especially since I want it to be dubbed. Also, the only anime that I typically pay attention to is that of the *cough cough cough* genre.
So, I see the Studio Ghibli films, or at least those that I've seen so far, as being a breath of fresh air. I wouldn't call them Eastern rivals to Disney productions, because they're an entirely different breed of dog. I would say that they are much better than a Disney production, considering how far the quality bar has fallen for pictures that don't have the "Pixar" label on them (which isn't to say that Pixar hasn't labored on a few turds as well). So, the Hayao Miyizaki films are definite must-sees for me and they demonstrate that there is more to anime than *cough cough cough*.
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Post by caucasoididiot on Feb 23, 2010 12:20:06 GMT -5
The Toho Kingdom website has some Miyazaki concept art: www.tohokingdom.com/concept_art.htmScroll down to the "distributed films" category at the bottom, but don't miss the link for Howl's Moving Castle a little above it. Heh heh, am I getting those coughs correctly? If so, that's a fascinating topic but maybe a hard one to get into here. I hope I'm not a snob on subs vs dubs, but I think the former is the one that least changes a film (all other things being equal, which they seldom are). It's true that they're a visual distraction, and that can be a problem with richly visual films like Myazaki's. I actually ended up seeing his mostly on region 2 discs without the dub option, and so mainly know the dubs from YouTube clips. That makes it hard to judge them fairly, but Disney does seem to add a snarkiness that isn't in the originals (Jiji in Kiki comes to mind here). But then, MJ's right: unless you're really fluent in the original language you're never going to be seeing the "actual" film. I think part of the problem is that if a US distributor is going to do a shoddy release of a foreign movie it's usually dubbed, thus often they'll be a poorer effort than the subtitles a more respected movie gets. One I wish I could find a Japanese dub for is a marvelous Czech film called Baron Prasil. I saw it as a kid and never forgot it, dubbed of course. I had a line on a Japanese release of it and really wanted to get it for my son, but it seems to be subtitled. Too bad, as it's a great movie for a small kid that holds up into adulthood.
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