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Post by mrmeadows on Oct 21, 2011 18:30:07 GMT -5
And, mrmeadows, I know you aren't saying this, but it's always a good thing to remember that you don't have to hate people who disagree with you. ;D Absolutely. That would make life very difficult. Besides, MST3K isn't straight up political satire. It's cultural satire (when it isn't just having fun). Just because Mike is conservative doesn't mean that Rifftrax secretly harbors a conservative agenda, just like Frank's being on CT doesn't mean that it secretly harbors a fully liberal agenda. (That said, if you want to get mad at them for "disagreeing" with you, a lot of conservatives might get upset with a lot of the jokes in CT's live show. Last weekend, there were jabs at Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann.) Right. And Rifftrax has made plenty of jokes about Republicans, too. And while neither Bill nor Kevin are overtly political in their Tweets and other writings, I kind of get the impression that they both may lean more left-of-center. If anything CT is the most biased, as I think ALL of the participants have exposed themselves as lefties at some point. But in the end, they're just jokes. . .I don't think either of them are trying to indoctrinate us. If you disagree with a riff (or if one simply rubs you the wrong way), don't worry....there will be another one coming along that makes you laugh. We should really just relax. |
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Post by mummifiedstalin on Oct 21, 2011 23:04:47 GMT -5
Just to take the discussion away from Mike, I have an honest question: why were the jokes you mentioned offensive?
That's not a confrontational question. I just want to know where you're coming from. The "Homotopia" thing seems like a jab at someone playing a queen. And the "300" scene you describe seems similar to the way they make fun of gratuitous girls-in-pools scenes in other movies. ("Angels Revenge," say). Maybe I'm just not getting the context that makes them offensive.
It doesn't sound like they're joking about them JUST because they're "gay." Instead, it seems like they're situations that could be seen as extreme depictions of over-the-top-ness like a cluster of sweaty muscled men wrestling or a drag-queen. But is that substantially different from all the commentary that goes along with the women in "Horrors of Spider Island" where the jokes are mostly about emphasizing the depiction of women as foolish and sexy at the same time?
Or is it that you felt the point of the joke was "Haha! That could be homosexual and therefore funny because gays are laughable"?
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Post by SOL Stowaway on Oct 21, 2011 23:58:12 GMT -5
Lots of thoughtful, intelligent responses here - exactly what I've come to expect from this place.  I even learned a new word: polysemic! W00t. i think a part of it is, the 90s were just generally more PC, after the bush years and the ascendancy of the new right, jokes that flirt with those particular lines of decency don't feel as funny or counter-establishment/subversive anymore, they just feel like you're listening to a bigot. Quoted for TRUTH. A question: would you find those same jokes to be "parodies" of the attitude you describe if the only thing that changed was that you thought Mike was really liberal? I ask because throughout its run, MST was filled with jokes which could be seen as either anti-feminist (Women drivers!) or parodies of chauvenism. Whether or not you find them offensive depends on the spirit in which you think the joke is meant. I've heard people refer to the same joke as evidence that the writers enjoy making fun of outdated sexist attitudes AND as evidence that they're perpetuating the same stereotypes by making the jokes in the first place. I've always assumed that everything they do (whether MST, CT, or RT) was tongue in cheek. Bad movies are good for the fans. Low production values in the host segments are the point. And offensive jokes are always satires of offensive jokes (which means that they're wrong AND funny at the same time). Take Frank's current schtick. I'd say he's likely the most crazy leftist of the bunch. His twitter/facebook feed is filled with extreme liberal bias to the point that it at times ends up being little more than "Christians suck" and "Republicans to a person are terrible people." There's plenty of grist there to be offended by from the opposite stance. But...he also knows that's intentionally playing the liberal version of a bigot, and it becomes something of a self-parody of his own liberalism. I doubt Mike is going that far (or being that intentional), but it's all still happening in a context where there are no sacred cows. To answer your question: no, not at all. If I thought Mike were a liberal and I heard him making those same jokes, I'd definitely give them the side eye. Exactly; it's all about the spirit in which you think the jokes are meant. When the guys make women jokes, it's extremely obvious, IMO, that they're making fun of the sexism found in so many of the films/shorts they've riffed over the years. The tone of some of Mike's gay jokes, however, just rubs me the wrong way. Take this one from The Fifth Element, for example. It's at @ 5:48: Yeah, that doesn't come across as remotely satirical to me; it comes across as derogatory. As has been pointed out, Kevin and Bill perform their fair share of gay jokes. The fact that this thread is aimed squarely at Mike alone says a great deal about the ideological assumptions at play here. With all respect, questioning Mike's character based on a handful of jokes (many that he likely didn't write) smacks more of bigotry than his alleged homophobia. I aimed it at Mike because, in my experience, with ONE exception, all of the jokes in question have come from him. That's fair. I'm certainly bigoted against the religious right in this country. But in our current political climate, if someone claims to be very conservative and has a tendancy to make jokes at the expense of gays, I don't think it's the least bit unreasonable for that to raise a red flag for me. Even Robin Williams would use the word "n*****" in his comedy act, and you wouldn't hear him say "oh, I'm not a racist" before or after he said it. Political correctness has no business in comedy. Yeah, but surely there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Insulting disenfranchised minority groups certainly crosses it for me. I also don't think white people should be using the N word and I don't want to hear anyone using the term f@g. It's NEVER funny (IMO) and it's extremely offensive to a lot of people. So the alien guy is wearing a long, purple, flamboyant shirt and says, "I wear the uniform of my country!" And Mike quips, "Homotania!" And that...totally ruined the episode for me. I'll be selling my copy to a homophobic relative. I'm fairly confident that the joke was less gay-bashing and more that the actor was a very open homosexual. Hmm, I never looked at it that way. I think he was just calling the outfit gay. And he could've riffed on it without perpetuating the stereotype that all gay men are effeminate. Something like...Flamboyantania! would've had the same effect. |
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Post by SOL Stowaway on Oct 22, 2011 0:01:21 GMT -5
Or is it that you felt the point of the joke was "Haha! That could be homosexual and therefore funny because gays are laughable"? Bingo. |
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Post by Mighty Jack on Oct 22, 2011 0:27:22 GMT -5
I listened to that clip you posted and for me, I don't hear offensive gay bashing there. It's not funny, but it's not homophobia.
I don't like everything Rifftrax does, but not because I find it offensive (all the wang jokes for example) but because when it is over done it comes off chidish and unfunny.
But someone out there must find it a hoot. And they probably look at me and think "Go to bed old man, yer harshing my fun, I LOVE those jokes. Give me more!"
And I can empathyze. I felt the same way when people complained about the Catholic bashing in CTs Blood of the Vampie. I was raised Catholic and I admit a few times it made me wince inwardly, but that was old Catholic guilt rearing it's head. In truth that end scene offered the most sustainable bouts of laughter I've experienced from any riff project. Other fans complained were offended and wished they would have taken it out. Me, I want the complainers to shut up so I get more good laughs like that.
If Rifftrax were to cut out a type a joke whenever someone complained about it... pretty soon you'd have nothing left to joke about.
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Post by mummifiedstalin on Oct 22, 2011 0:50:31 GMT -5
The tone of some of Mike's gay jokes, however, just rubs me the wrong way. Take this one from The Fifth Element, for example. It's at @ 5:48: Yeah, that doesn't come across as remotely satirical to me; it comes across as derogatory. Maybe. But that riff doesn't seem like he's saying "gay" the way that middle school kids (unfortunately) use "gay" to mean "dumb" or "bad." He's in a decorated sailor suit. He's Village People with sci-fi accessories. In the Navy!, etc. But we're getting to questions of tone now, which are subjective. Does it perpetuate that stereotype? Or does it use it to point out the ridiculousness of the costume? I mean, there just ARE flamboyant queens. Their flamboyance is connected to their sexuality. No, not all homosexuals are like that by a long shot, but even my gay friends throw around jokes about people being queens or flamers whenever they get extravagant. Besides, and I can't believe I'm going to defend this joke, but "Homotania" is funnier than "Flamboytania." It's partly funny because it's offensive (I think everyone would agree that "homo" by itself has a negative connotation now). But it's also funny because it expresses what the 12-year-old in many people may be thinking. Stereotypes HAPPEN, and we have to work to overcome them...but they often remain in the cultural imagination. They're a go-to thing of our lower selves. Fart jokes, sex jokes, racial slurs, all those things float around. Good citizens recognize it as childish and work to overcome them. But the humor comes in not having to edit or be "good" and to say the terrible thing that pops into your head without warning. (Of course the best way to tell that joke would have been to yell "Homotopia"...because it uses assonance. And now I've offended myself.) |
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Post by Zombiejesus on Oct 22, 2011 0:52:11 GMT -5
I've pretty much had Nelson pegged as right of center since his performance in Supercalafragalistic-expialawacy!!! at the beginning of the Sword and the Dragon. He just seemed to have an authentic Libertarian zeal when he sang, "I'm the government! I'm the government! I'm full of bloat and perks! I'm the government! I'm the government! I'M THE REASON NOTHING WORKS!" I mean even if he didn't write that line, I got the sense from his delivery that he agreed.
I'm a bit disappointed with his insisting that ALL Democrats represent silly America. I'm very disappointed in fact, in his holding such a childish view. I mean, I'm somewhere left of Mao but I still take the opposition seriously.
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Post by mummifiedstalin on Oct 22, 2011 0:54:28 GMT -5
SOL Stoaway, I'm glad you're talking about this, though. I may disagree, but I'm not going to say that you're being stupid or oversensitive. It's not just a "PC" issue because language really can perpetuate negativity. I just happen to think that MST's type of humor is one place where everything is put on hold, and sometimes we just do laugh at the lowest. Think of Ring of Terror: in that movie, they ridicule the film for making fun of the fat people...AND they make fun of the fat people themselves. They have it both ways, satire and offensiveness together. That's part of why I like it.
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Post by TheNewMads on Oct 22, 2011 9:29:14 GMT -5
I've pretty much had Nelson pegged as right of center since his performance in Supercalafragalistic-expialawacy!!! at the beginning of the Sword and the Dragon. He just seemed to have an authentic Libertarian zeal when he sang, "I'm the government! I'm the government! I'm full of bloat and perks! I'm the government! I'm the government! I'M THE REASON NOTHING WORKS!" I mean even if he didn't write that line, I got the sense from his delivery that he agreed. i don't remember that but it sounds pretty funny , actually. the frist tipoff for me was in "starfighters" when, during the interminable bombing-the-deserts sequence, mike came out with a "yeah, but SADDAM HUSSEIN AIN'T LAUGHIN'" joke. got the sense there was a little rah-rah militarism in him. (a lot like in "truck farmer," the quip joel makes about "man as annointed by God exercises dominion over his domain" made me think there might be an atheistic environmentalist in him.) drawing a distinction between "serious" and "silly" america is just... well, silly. both sides make good points. who can help but agree with conservatives in the value of hard work, personal responsibility, the good-faith effort to promote freedom and democracy around the world, the tendency of bloated government to tilt into despotism.... (i don't get the impression i need to recite the virtues of liberalism here, gladly.) the problem comes in the execution. i could see looking at that portion of OWSers who think it's a human right to own a home (as distinct from it being a human right to have decent shelter, which i totally agree with) and thinking the left has a bit of a silly streak. but who in a sober frame of mind could look at, say, herman cain's 9-9-9 plan and say, oh, well, THAT's serious. serious america has given us michelle bachman and sarah palin? really? |
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Post by mylungswereaching on Oct 22, 2011 15:53:49 GMT -5
30 or 40 years ago, it was offensive to many people to even admit that gays existed. There still is an element of that even now. The fact that we can joke about gay people can show that they are more accepted in society today. Is it better to tell gays to stay in the closet? But, there is a line where it is offensive. I tend to be on the side of, let them say what they want.
A few comments, here and there that I consider over the top don't bother me. It doesn't appear that they are looking for excuses to make gay jokes. If you've got a movie with 50 closeups of men's behinds or pecks and you don't make some kind of comment, your missing an opportunity. If they looked like they used every excuse they could to make a gay joke I'd be offended. If you have someone in a movie who is showing every gay stereotype in the book, he or she is fair game.
I'm also a liberal but I don't particularly like putting all conservatives in the same basket. Old school conservatives vs tea baggers, fiscal conservatives vs social conservatives, etc. It's mostly the hard core social conservatives that have a problem with gays. Many fiscal conservatives don't really care, they just go along with the social conservatives to keep the peace.
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Post by icecreambunny on Oct 23, 2011 5:56:13 GMT -5
Or is it that you felt the point of the joke was "Haha! That could be homosexual and therefore funny because gays are laughable"? Bingo. I agree. It really depends on the joke, though- what you have to ask yourself is not "Is ____ homophobic?" but "Is this joke homophobic?" and really, sometimes they are. Sometimes they're funny and inoffensive, sometimes it just boils down to crap. The ones that really get to me are the ones in the X-Men rifftrax, where they basically go I'M GAAYY every time Ian McKellan comes on screen. Which gets a million accuracy points, but it's not funny, and I'm not sure why they think it is. |
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Post by reaperg on Oct 23, 2011 10:00:02 GMT -5
Howard Stern has made fun of the gay lifestyle for years, while also voicing his support for gay rights. Dennis Miller, despite his post-9/11 turn to the right, also has no problem with homosexuals.
I see nothing wrong with non-PC humor, as long as such jokes are told in a purely humorous, non-hateful way. I realize such jokes can be left open to interpretation. but sometimes one has to grow a thick skin and be able to laugh along.
Really, though. Homotania? You're going to disown Rifftrax over *that*?
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Post by continosbuckle on Oct 23, 2011 12:23:56 GMT -5
Really, though. Homotania? You're going to disown Rifftrax over *that*? You could turn that around and ask whether Rifftrax is willing to lose fans over "Homotania". Is that such a fantastic joke furthering their reputations as humorists that it's worth offending their fans? I mean, Jesus. And perhaps we have competing definitions, but non-PC humor by its very nature has hatefulness in it. That's the point of it. |
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Post by Mod City on Oct 23, 2011 13:09:04 GMT -5
To me there's quite difference between making fun of something and hating something. My interpretation of the aforementioned jokes is that they are jokes, and nothing more. And as many others have pointed out, often they are not very good or effective jokes.
Are they insensitive? Maybe, but I'd like to know how they're any more or less offensive then Joel joking about Judy Garland on a scene from Space Travelers where the actors are about to take a bunch of sleeping pills. Does Joel hate drug addicts and find it amusing when they overdose? I doubt it. And for my money, that joke is funny, but it could have easily crashed and burned.
I don't know. Like mummi said there's no way anything can be said that will cause you to suddenly become not offended. If you think Mike may be homophobic, then he pretty much already is in your eyes. Question answered.
To me, he's not. He's a great comedy performer and writer whose material doesn't always fly like it should. Just my two cents.
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Post by The Mad Plumber on Oct 23, 2011 17:49:52 GMT -5
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I even learned a new word: polysemic! W00t.
