Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
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Post by Torgo on May 14, 2014 13:47:17 GMT -5
As a serious G-fan since the age of three, I find that summery of Godzilla's Japanese legacy to be absolute nonsense. While it can be contended that Emmerich's film is a better made film than, oh say, Final Wars, to state that every single one of Godzilla's Japanese films is apalling is ignorance to what they achieve. And the brushing off of the original film's praise as "hogwash" is hogwash in of itself. The original film has so many underlining themes about the horrors that man can create that it becomes a far more interesting movie to watch than some special effects blockbuster that's only theme is showing a giant special effect and shooting at it.
Emmerich is at times competent at what he does, but your assessment of what the Japanese film series actually is feels fueled by ignorence. And I find it hard to believe anybody who claims to be a massive G-fan would make statements about the original film's themes as "hogwash." Hell, even people who aren't G-fans conclude that the film has power. Even Roger Ebert, who hated Godzilla called the themes "important" before chiding it for its special effects.
Or is your post about special effects as well? Because that's honestly the only way I can read it that makes any sense whatsoever.
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Post by Who Let Servo Drive on May 14, 2014 16:13:22 GMT -5
I love Godzilla and I know it's a bit embarrassing to have someone trash the G movies when you love the character but let's face it, every movie after the first was junk. If they offered decent doses of mindless fun that would be one thing, but they are instead mindlessly dull, with only the occasional battle of the zip-ups to enjoy. To make matters worse, many of the more recent ones, after the mid 80s reboot, have the cheesiest possible recycling of American pop culture icons, which are truly squirm-inducing.
The first picture has taken on a mythic quality with G fans because it is not as awful as the sequels, but the truth is it's also rather dull. Japanese films are very slow and when that's well done, the movie can be a contemplative classic. When it's badly done, it can be coma-inducing. I'll commit another heresy and assert that the American version is a better movie, both in the way it edited the film down and in the extremely effective storytelling technique of Steve Martin's "London Calling" type narrative, which gives the story an excitement the meandering Japanese original lacks. It also starts with a hook, never a bad idea when you're about to launch into a long period of exposition.
What the Japanese version has is lots of purportedly serious discussion about politics and responsibility, which topics don't necessarily make for a bad film (and in fact some of the greatest films of all time have taken on similar issues), it just makes, in this case, for a boring one, especially when all the fuss relates to a handpuppet rampaging over a miniature set. In fact, Godzilla himself, while a great design, isn't an especially interesting monster in his supposedly classic initial incarnation. He just rises from the sea and destroys, for no apparent reason. He is not hungry, he is not angry, he just rampages. Even if that idea were developed a bit more he would have been more interesting.
I think you were feeling a little defensive when you claimed that my comments are fuelled by ignorance, so I'm not going to take it personally. I'll just say that there's no need to insult someone you don't know over a lizard in a movie. Also, references to Roger Ebert, the patron saint of middlebrow film reviewing, are hardly going to be persuasive here. If you want to see someone sort of understand a movie, but not really get it, Roger Ebert was your one-stop shop. The fact that Ebert chose to trash the movie for what were at the time pretty good effects is really telling, and completely typical.
To sum up, there's a good reason that so many Godzilla movies were subjected to the MST treatment.
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Post by reaperg on May 18, 2014 12:55:44 GMT -5
Writing them off as "mindless fun" is to be willfully ignorant. These movies had first-rate special effects for their time and starred A-list stars in the Japanese cinema. And while perhaps the themes weren't as strong as in the first movie, they were in the sequels -- commericialism ("King Kong vs. Godzilla"), greed ("Mothra vs. Godzilla"), humanity coming together for the greater good of the world ("Monster Zero", "Destroy All Monsters"), pollution ("Godzilla vs. Hedorah", "Godzilla vs. Gigan"), reckless science ("Godzilla vs. Biollante"), national pride ("Godzilla vs King Ghidorah"), environmental destruction ("Godzilla vs. Mothra: The Battle for Earth"), and respecting the past ("Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters' All-Out Attack").
And Ebert, the scribe of "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls"? It's him vs. Kurosawa, Scorsese, Lucas, Spielberg, Burton, Tarantino, and Del Toro. Who should I listen to regarding Godzilla?
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Post by Afgncaap5 on May 18, 2014 14:45:01 GMT -5
Funding seems to have slowed significantly since opening day. Six days in, and we're only approaching 150% of the goal.
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Post by Who Let Servo Drive on May 19, 2014 10:43:42 GMT -5
Writing them off as "mindless fun" is to be willfully ignorant. "You're being stupid because you're disagreeing with me" is begging the question a bit. The fact that a movie purports to be an issues film a) doesn't necessarily make it one, and b) doesn't necessarily make it any less stupid. Example of both a) and b): The Day After Tomorrow, a mind-numbingly stupid picture, held itself out as an environmentalism movie. Look guys, I love the movies too -- I just don't need to pretend they're not dumb in order to do so.
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Post by reaperg on May 19, 2014 11:45:26 GMT -5
If you loved the movies, you'd know they were more than just "junk." Ever seen them in their original Japanese? Ever read G-FAN magazine or "Eiji Tsuburaya: Master of Monsters" or "Japan's Favorite Mon-Star"? The more I actually learn about these films, the more I appreciate them.
Okay, *some* of them were pretty bad. ::cough::SpaceGodzilla::cough:: But all of them? If they were, Godzilla wouldn't still be popular.
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Post by Who Let Servo Drive on May 21, 2014 9:05:53 GMT -5
If you loved the movies, you'd know they were more than just "junk." Sorry, not going to let some other person define why I am permitted to love certain kinds of movies. Hope that's ok! Ah, but then explain Adam Sandler. Check and mate my friend, check and mate.... What is so wrong about loving something dumb? I would think that if any people on the planet would understand that, it would be MSTies. Before MST even existed I would go to showings of Ed Wood movies and other garbage from the 40s-60s like Brooklyn Gorilla, usually at some theater on the Upper West Side, and the audience would be howling and chanting the lines of the movies. Sure, there was scorn, but also a real affection.
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Post by zombiewhacker on May 22, 2014 3:39:33 GMT -5
I believe it is still the highest grossing Godzilla movie ever made. I hated it, but it's still better made than any Japanese Godzilla movie... Better produced, perhaps, but better scripted? Lords, no. I love Godzilla and I know it's a bit embarrassing to have someone trash the G movies when you love the character but let's face it, every movie after the first was junk. If they offered decent doses of mindless fun that would be one thing, but they are instead mindlessly dull, with only the occasional battle of the zip-ups to enjoy. Gotta disagree again there. Godzilla vs. The Thing and Ghidrah The Three Headed Monster hold up surprisingly well after all these years and were IMHO pure fun, cheap FX notwithstanding. I'll commit another heresy and assert that the American version is a better movie, both in the way it edited the film down and in the extremely effective storytelling technique of Steve Martin's "London Calling" type narrative, which gives the story an excitement the meandering Japanese original lacks. It also starts with a hook, never a bad idea when you're about to launch into a long period of exposition. Recently TCM ran the original Gojira and I was surprised to see how disorganized and disjointed the film is. Twenty minutes in the film had yet to even establish a main character. Instead it merely jumped from vignette to vignette, focusing on a new protagonist every five minutes. At least with the Raymond Burr version we had a main character to identify with from the start. Also, references to Roger Ebert, the patron saint of middlebrow film reviewing, are hardly going to be persuasive here. If you want to see someone sort of understand a movie, but not really get it, Roger Ebert was your one-stop shop. A more perfect smackdown of Roger Ebert I have never read. That last sentence alone is suitable for framing.
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Post by Skyroniter on May 22, 2014 19:42:50 GMT -5
I contributed to the Kickstarter and have hopes to get tickets to the live show. If I do, I'll fly this time. No more 25 hour drives!
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Post by reaperg on May 25, 2014 10:37:53 GMT -5
Ah, but then explain Adam Sandler. Check and mate my friend, check and mate.... But Sandler's no longer a box office draw, and let's see how he's doing 40 years from now. Don't celebrate too soon, Spassky. There's nothing wrong with loving cheesy movies, I'm questioning your willful ignorance. The original "Star Trek" is classic because of the stories and characters and Gene Roddenberry's vision, but my father never could get around the cheap sets and effects. I'm not a "Doctor Who" fan, but I'm sure there's more to it than a limey in a scarf waving a laser pointer at marauding garbage cans.
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Post by angilasman on May 25, 2014 21:27:05 GMT -5
The interesting thing when watching Godzilla 1998 is that, despite all the smug superiority at the time that they were replacing campy rubber suits with CGI, their computer generated Godzilla fails spectacularly at giving any sense of enormity. You never feel like this thing is actually taking up physical space, or that it's as large as it should be, and the changes in scale (Godzilla appearing bigger or smaller seemingly at random) were so glaring I actually noticed it! I never notice that in other films (Kong apparently becoming ten feet taller in NYC went right past me).
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Post by Afgncaap5 on May 26, 2014 22:40:49 GMT -5
Wow. Halfway done, and there's been, like, zero money growth in the last week. I love that we're getting this, but it's crazy to see how much the donating just sorta... dried up.
I guess MST and Rifftrax fans are practical like that.
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Post by Who Let Servo Drive on May 27, 2014 10:07:48 GMT -5
But Sandler's no longer a box office draw, Compared to the Japanese Godzilla he certainly is -- none of the zip up Japanese epics made more than $10MM at the US box office. Even Sandler's recent flop did better than that. The only Godzilla movies to find much of an audience at the US box office have been the Americanizations. Adam Sandler is not a rubber lizard suit, so I'm afraid you're hugging the analogy a little too tightly. Well, we agree on that, as I question my willful ignorance as well. There is. Despite the budget limitations the writers developed characters unusually well for a sci fi program, and at its best the show maturely explores philosophical and ethical questions. But it doesn't follow that cheesy special effects bring with them good stories or thought-provoking issues. The problem with the Godzilla movies is they were sort of thrown together -- badly written and boring, and, at least starting in the 90s, often so derivative of good sci fi movies as to make you cringe in embarrassment just watching them.
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Post by dph on May 28, 2014 19:27:54 GMT -5
Can't believe no one has mentioned it yet but....
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Post by Who Let Servo Drive on May 29, 2014 8:12:21 GMT -5
now that would be super fun to riff.
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