Trace and Frank

[rocketman]

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere...

I listen to Trace and Frank's podcast Movie Sign with the Mads (and so should you if you're not already doing so - it's a great podcast) and a couple of times they made statements along the lines of: "It's kind of strange when a franchise gets rebooted and the original cast and creators do not get asked to participate."

Now, they never explicitly state that Joel did not approach them to be a part of seasons 11 onward. They just mention this on the side when talking about other films, but from the *wink-wink* tone of these comments it's still rather obvious that this is what they're implying.

Makes my kind of sad. Any thoughts?

[Torgo]

I recall Joel saying the genesis of the new MST was him brainstorming with Trace about it behind the scenes of Cinematic Titanic. Eventually he and Trace parted ways due to a difference in opinion. More specifically Trace was very keen on the idea of bringing the entire cast back for a reunion season and they were going back and forth with crazy ideas on how to do it with two hosts, two Crows, two Servos, ect. Joel was keen on the idea as well, but he just couldn't get it to gel for himself storywise and started thinking a new cast was the way to go. Trace disagreed and decided to not continue with the collaboration.

I don't know if Frank had anything to do with this, but he is likely sticking with Trace out of loyalty. Frank has been very supportive of the new cast on social media, especially Patton Oswalt. If he claims any resentment, he's likely just joking. He's too busy hating Donald Trump to hate the new MST.

It's likely Trace's preference would have been preferable to people who just wanted the show back with the same cast for one more round, though I think Joel was more interested in a long term run. Was there a middle ground? Maybe. They could have started with some reunion episodes then broken in a new cast as the season went along, but we don't really know any specifics about the disagreed upon ideas, or even if Mike, Kevin, and Bill would have been up for getting back into the theater (aside from the Bobo and Observer cameo). I'm happy the show went in Joel's direction though I do wonder how the discarded reunion would have played out.

[Torgo]

In retrospect about Trace and Joel, I'd like to point out that I recalled this article from about two years ago and the point of what was stated and me reading in between the lines might have blurred since then. I'm pretty sure it stated he started brainstorming with Trace about bringing the show back with the old cast and Joel saying that it started to look like they couldn't. I think that's just my interpretation of their disagreement over the direction of the show, since Trace apparently was all for it initially but comes a little bitter about it today.

But it's hard to know how Trace and Frank really feel unless they come forth with it themselves. I'm pretty sure Frank is cool with it though.

[monkeypretzel]

Trace and Frank were going to be in the new MST3K. Joel's idea was to have Kinga be a "reluctant super-villain in training", and Trace, Frank, and Pearl were reprising their roles. Something happened in the summer or fall of 2015 to cause them to drop out. Per Joel in a Gizmodo intervew from March 2017:

"I always felt like the experiment was going to be Kinga Forrester, who’s Dr. Clayton Forrester’s daughter and Pearl Forrester’s granddaughter. But when we were starting, right before the Kickstarter, I was planning on [original villains] Trace Beaulieu and Frank Conniff being part of it. We were planning on doing the Kickstarter video and we were actually planning their travel and I had written them into the script for the Kickstarter and so, it was going to be Forrester and Frank and Kinga—and also Mary Jo Pehl, who played Pearl. They were more like an ensemble and Kinga was more of a reluctant super villain-in-training.

And just before we shot the video, for different reasons, they couldn’t be part of the Kickstarter. Trace, Frank, Maru [sic] Jo, etc. And so, I had to kind of change my posture because I realized, “Oh, all-new people we’re just going to have to proceed with...” and lean more strongly on Kinga, Jonah Ray, and the ‘Bots. So I was really faced with that. I knew I’d have to get a second banana for Kinga, and I was already wanting to use Patton. He just dropped in and it was fantastic. As you can see, they’re like, unbelievable together. It’s really crazy how good he and Felicia are."

What happened is pure speculation, because no one involved has said anything on why Trace, Frank, and at the time Mary Jo dropped out. I will say that as far as Trace and Frank being publicly supportive of the return, Trace really hasn't said much other than wishing everyone well and Frank has supported the cast and crew members, but neither one has said anything as far as I can find about Joel himself. You can support the players and not the manager, if you know what I mean. Frank's made his share of snarky comments in interviews, though. From last November:

Interviewer: “So Frank, how about you? What’s Thanksgiving look like for you?”

Frank Conniff: “Well, I have a kind of recent Thanksgiving Day tradition, which is not being asked to be part of the MST3K Turkey Day Marathon.”

Trace Beaulieu: “Frank and I stuff our turkeys with the same bitterness.”

That's OK, Frank. Tom and Crow aren't invited for Turkey Day either, anymore.

[Torgo]

I'm not sure if it's the same article I read or not. Do you happen to have a link handy? I'd be curious to either re-read it or read the rest of it.

[47]

Well, this is something of a divergence from the topic, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Michael Nelson was not at all interested in participating with a reunion, nor indeed with any involvement at all. ^{†1 †2 †3}

Whether that is due to some animostity between him and Joel, or between his enterprise and a competitor, or simply a difference of creative interests — I guess you could read into those comments any number of ways.

It is doubtful that his lack of participation would be a key to Trace's desire for a reunion — i.e. either everyone will be there, or no one should be.  I would not be surprised, though, if he is simply farther to one extreme of the gradual polarization between the two camps, and maybe that the distance between Michael and Joel tends to pull the others farther apart.


†1

†2

†3 www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-mystery-science-theater-3000-kickstarter-mst3k-20151110-story.html

[majorjoe23]

Interestingly, at the live recording of his 372 Pages podcast a few months back, someone asked Mike if he would be in season 12 and he said he wasn’t asked.

[monkeypretzel]

Aug 18, 2018 16:07:25 GMT -5 Torgo said:

I'm not sure if it's the same article I read or not. Do you happen to have a link handy? I'd be curious to either re-read it or read the rest of it.

io9.gizmodo.com/creator-joel-hodgson-on-the-return-of-mystery-science-t-1793682355

[Torgo]

Aug 19, 2018 13:38:39 GMT -5 monkeypretzel said:

Aug 18, 2018 16:07:25 GMT -5 Torgo said:

I'm not sure if it's the same article I read or not. Do you happen to have a link handy? I'd be curious to either re-read it or read the rest of it.

io9.gizmodo.com/creator-joel-hodgson-on-the-return-of-mystery-science-t-1793682355

Thank you!

[madisoncarter]

I may have completely misread it at the time, but when all this went down in real time, it seemed like most of them were upset that Joel had started the whole project on his own without talking to any of them, and then only after it got funded and started did he start asking them to be part of it, making it clear what their role in things was going to be.

[monkeypretzel]

At the time, during the Kickstarter (Update #2 to be specific), Joel told the potential backers that he had discussed coming back with some of the old cast, but that he hadn't made any offers:

"Right now, I don't know who will agree to come back and work on the next season of MST3K… but if the Kickstarter is successful, everyone will be invited to take part.

Until yesterday, I wasn't even sure this whole Kickstarter idea would work. I've reached out and spoken with some of the old cast and writers, but until I knew how much money we'd have to work with – and when we'd start writing and shooting – there was just no way to make the specific offers that I hope will bring many of them back.

Plus – as many of you know – so far, the old cast haven't been compensated as well as they (or I) might have liked. I wish I could go back and fix that, but if I'm going to ask them to participate in the next season, I want to be certain we can pay them what they deserve this time. As soon as we pass our initial goal of $2,000,000, I'm hoping to start making the invitations official, and I hope some of them will be able to join us before we start working in January."

But that wasn't true. Josh Weinstein, in an interview with Ken Plume that aired 12/21/15, confirmed that Joel had made him an offer, a substantial offer with "good money" to write on the new show. Josh declined because he wasn't interested, but that's why Ken Plume was upset and spoke out against the Kickstarter. He knew that what Joel was saying to potential backers wasn't accurate. Joel held out the carrot during the Kickstarter that the original cast* would possibly return if he could raise enough funds, but he had already made the offers, and as the interview from Gizmodo in March 2017 that I posted above proves, he already KNEW when he wrote those words that the original cast WASN'T going to come back - that they had been signed up and then dropped out. I'm not going to say Joel lied, but he sure as heck stretched the truth to raise more money than he otherwise would have if he had been upfront and said that the original cast* wasn't participating. I think maybe that's why Trace and Frank especially were pissed off (and Mary Jo had a few tweets too, at the time) about the Kickstarter. They knew what Joel was telling the press and the backers wasn't the entire truth, and he was framing it in a way where the fans would turn around and ask them why they weren't going to be a part of it, shifting the responsibility from his shoulders to theirs to explain why diplomatically. (I'd give anything to know WHY they all dropped out after signing up, but I respect that they don't want to talk about it.) The fact that Mary Jo changed her mind, and that Kevin and Bill joined her, and Paul and Beez's involvement, saved Joel's bacon.

Also, I note, that Ken Plume who has done MST3K panels at DragonCon for years, isn't doing them this year with Joel and the new cast in attendance. I also note that Bill, Trace, and Frank are not attending DragonCon this year. Interesting.

*Original Cast - I've been talking this over with a few MSTie friends of mine, and we tend to think that what Joel refers to as the original cast isn't what most fans perceive as the original cast. We think that because Cinematic Titanic went on tour with the tagline "the Original Cast of MST3K", Joel considers them as the original cast, even though MJ and Frank are later additions than Kevin and Mike. It makes sense if you believe Mike when he says he wasn't asked to be part of the new show.

[gerswin]

As someone who works in the entertainment industry and reads news articles on a weekly basis purporting to reveal some drama at my company or past companies, I've learned that you can never, ever understand the real story, unless you're in it. And even then it can be hard to parse out exactly what's happening.

Joel probably has a dozen good reasons for doing it the way he did it, and the rest of the guys probably have a dozen good reasons to be angry.

[christmas]

The insight in this thread has been illuminating. Thanks!

[BoB3K]

Aug 19, 2018 17:14:06 GMT -5 madisoncarter said:

when all this went down in real time, it seemed like most of them were upset that Joel had started the whole project on his own without talking to any of them, and then only after it got funded and started did he start asking them to be part of it, making it clear what their role in things was going to be.

This is my recollection as well.

Both Trace and Frank had a few brief but bitter public comments on the reboot when it all first became public and the KS was going on. Frank has appeared to soften greatly since then; my personal guess is that he's made peace with it, but is also happy with what he's been doing. I think all of them have made up for the most part professionally as can be seen by the reunion gigs* that RiffTrax has put together over the last few years and also how RiffTrax even sells MST3K stuff alongside their own. ... *Frank in particular seemed to have a ball being on stage again and getting all the love from the audience.

As for Mike, Kevin and Bill, they have RiffTrax and it looks like it is doing them all just fine. Kevin and Bill actually did come back for those cameos, but it looks to me like Mike just wants to be the face of RiffTrax and is happy with that, and I don't blame him.  I have my own mixed feelings for Rifftrax over the years (varying from elated, to in love, to growing disappointment with riff quality), but will always give Mike total props for keeping riffing alive during those dark years of the early 00s.