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Post by vgaddict on Nov 26, 2018 19:49:41 GMT -5
I've now watched 9 episodes of S11, and I have a few complaints about the new series.
The show is a bit too meta and self-aware for my tastes. Like when Kinga said, "Anger thousands of fanfiction writers" when she forces Jonah to marry her in Carnival Magic, or the whole thing about MST3K being a show instead of just an experiment.
Speaking of that, I'm not a fan of how they changed it to a show. I preferred the cheesy public access show feel to the original.
Thirdly, I feel like some jokes go on too long. Jonah or the bots will make a riff, then drag on the joke for several more seconds. Joel, Mike, Trace, Bill and Kevin knew when to end a joke.
Maybe I'm just being nitpicky. What do you think?
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Post by mrmeadows on Nov 26, 2018 20:21:51 GMT -5
Thirdly, I feel like some jokes go on too long. Jonah or the bots will make a riff, then drag on the joke for several more seconds. Joel, Mike, Trace, Bill and Kevin knew when to end a joke. Did you see any Season 11 episodes? That was a big complaint of mine last season, but I think they have VASTLY improved on that for S12. I thought the rhythm of the riffing was much closer to the original show this time around, with a lot fewer "run-on" riffs than last year.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Nov 26, 2018 20:39:01 GMT -5
Thirdly, I feel like some jokes go on too long. Jonah or the bots will make a riff, then drag on the joke for several more seconds. Joel, Mike, Trace, Bill and Kevin knew when to end a joke. Did you see any Season 11 episodes? That was a big complaint of mine last season, but I think they have VASTLY improved on that for S12. I thought the rhythm of the riffing was much closer to the original show this time around, with a lot fewer "run-on" riffs than last year. Agree on this. It still happens but it's much more rare. When it does happen, however, it manifests as over-explaining the joke. Two examples I pointed out in The Day Time Ended episode: The first was when the gas station attendant came out with a lamp and Servo said that he's just looking for a good man. But then he has to also throw in that ir's a Diogenes joke. The 2nd is at the end of the movie where Jonah, I believe, yells about being "trapped in Myst, the 1993 graphic adventure video game released by Brøderbund". And I think the actual line may have been longer than that. It shows a distinct lack of trust in the audience. And follows a general dumbing-down of the whole riffing affair. No longer is it "the the right people will get it", now it's "we want to make sure everyone gets this". In season 11, the problem was that they didn't know how to write riffs properly. In Season 12 the problem is that they don't know how to consistently write riffs that aren't aimed squarely at the lowest-common-denoninator. I think this problem was mostly masked by the fact that there were a ton of guest writers in season 11, and that multitude of the voices created a simulacrum of what the old show used to be like: a myriad of smart comic voices, throwing out whatever arcane and esoteric things they thought funny, even if it wasn't formatted correctly. In Season 12, the writers room is much smaller. I don't even think Hampton and Baron write jokes for the show anymore, if I remember the credits correctly. And most of the current writers are apparently very enamored with not so much culture on the whole, but a very specific strain of pop culture. The kind of pop culture that lives on YouTube and is concerned about what kind of Funko Pop figure is coming out. Sorry, I'm starting to drone on. I promised I would save all this for a thread of its own, and I will.
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Post by vgaddict on Nov 27, 2018 7:11:34 GMT -5
One positive thing I'll say about S11 is I like how it has a nice variety of movies. You have science fiction (Time Travelers), space opera (Star Crash), western (Beast of Hollow Mountain), sword and sandals (Loves of Hercules), holiday (The Christmas That Almost Wasn't), kaiju (Yongary) and fantasy (Wizards of the Lost Kingdom 1&2).
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Post by RedTom on Dec 2, 2018 10:44:17 GMT -5
My complaint about the new show is how fans keep finding petty things to complain about the new show. We as a fandom have been spoiled by having such an easy time of it for the whole time Joel and Mike hosted the show. So now the stipulation is that the new show must follow the formula either directly or with certain restrictions that they must follow to the letter. Well I'm here to tell you that it's just too bad. The show is how it is and they have been trying to keep the nostalgia alive while also giving a good performance with their riffs. Yeah, the riffs are different, and yeah even I am a tiny bit annoyed by how fast and unrelenting some of their riff sessions are on occasion, but do I let that ruin the show for me? Absolutely not.
The new show is not going to be the old show. It never will be. They can get it relatively close but they'll never reach that summit for some people. Giving the new show such high expectations is unfair to the creators who have obviously worked their asses off to bring back a show that they love as well, and pinning on extra expectations is unfair. Saying that the show sucks for not meeting these expectations brings me to believe that whoever is so nitpicky in the first place was going to hate the show no matter how well they made it.
The new show is not perfect. There are some issues I had with it, but seeing through those issues and welcoming it as if the show had never left in the first place was as simple as watching it to begin with. We tend to forget that the original show was not perfect in its first few seasons as well. The fact of the matter is, it's what got us here to begin with. So to all of the naysayers that are being so damn nitpicky on what isn't in the show or what they did wrong with the show: At least it's back. The show is back and they are giving it the love they once gave it before and I, for one, love it. It's not without its problems, but like a true friend, we can all look past them.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Dec 2, 2018 11:19:35 GMT -5
And I'd like to complain about fans discounting what the new show COULD be because it obviously isn't going to be the old show. And giving the new show a free pass to be lazy and pandering simply because they aren't the old show.
I also don't like the belief among some fans that that any kind of criticism is equivalent to hating the new show in total. I'm also tired of fans that believe everything the show does now is above reproach because gosh darn it they're giving us our show back and any show is better than no show and they're pushing all my nostalgia buttons.
I'm also tired of fans saying that people that find these criticisms are looking through rose-colored glasses at the old episodes and that the old show really wasn't as good as you remember it and had all sorts of issues. Because no one is saying that the old show was always perfect but it was at least smart, didn't hold its audience by the hand, didn't pander to them and tried to be original, culturally aware and well-made.
I'm tired of fans that accept mediocrity. I'm tired of fans that will eat up any tripe put in front of them and repeat it ad nauseum, particularly when it's an unearned repeated riff that the writers are very clearly trying to make into a catchphrase (Capsule! Bang! Pretty nice! Steak milk! Etc). I'm tired of being pandered to. I'm tired of being talked down to in the riffing and by other fans.
I'm tired of being written off as a grump in MST groups simply because I expect more from a show that used to be one of the smartest things on television and now settles for Big Bang Theory levels of nerd jokes and scatological humor. And I'm completely tired of being told my opinion isn't valid because I'm not 100% on board with what the new show is doing and dare find a few flaws.
I can't look past those flaws, I won't look past those flaws. Those flaws need to be fixed, and if there's any indication between the difference between season 11 and season 12, they do at least tend to listen to their criticisms. Criticism is important and vital to the growth of anything.
So I guess that's where some fans are going to split hairs. I call it constructive criticism, others call it nitpicking. And I'm ok with other people not liking it, as long as the show learns from it.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Dec 2, 2018 21:28:08 GMT -5
And I'd like to complain about fans discounting what the new show COULD be because it obviously isn't going to be the old show. And giving the new show a free pass to be lazy and pandering simply because they aren't the old show. I also don't like the belief among some fans that that any kind of criticism is equivalent to hating the new show in total. I'm also tired of fans that believe everything the show does now is above reproach because gosh darn it they're giving us our show back and any show is better than no show and they're pushing all my nostalgia buttons. I'm also tired of fans saying that people that find these criticisms are looking through rose-colored glasses at the old episodes and that the old show really wasn't as good as you remember it and had all sorts of issues. Because no one is saying that the old show was always perfect but it was at least smart, didn't hold its audience by the hand, didn't pander to them and tried to be original, culturally aware and well-made. I'm tired of fans that accept mediocrity. I'm tired of fans that will eat up any tripe put in front of them and repeat it ad nauseum, particularly when it's an unearned repeated riff that the writers are very clearly trying to make into a catchphrase (Capsule! Bang! Pretty nice! Steak milk! Etc). I'm tired of being pandered to. I'm tired of being talked down to in the riffing and by other fans. I'm tired of being written off as a grump in MST groups simply because I expect more from a show that used to be one of the smartest things on television and now settles for Big Bang Theory levels of nerd jokes and scatological humor. And I'm completely tired of being told my opinion isn't valid because I'm not 100% on board with what the new show is doing and dare find a few flaws. I can't look past those flaws, I won't look past those flaws. Those flaws need to be fixed, and if there's any indication between the difference between season 11 and season 12, they do at least tend to listen to their criticisms. Criticism is important and vital to the growth of anything. So I guess that's where some fans are going to split hairs. I call it constructive criticism, others call it nitpicking. And I'm ok with other people not liking it, as long as the show learns from it. Remember when you watched MST3K and you felt like you were laughing with them? Now it feels like the people making the show are laughing *at* the audience. "Here, here's a piece of the old show that you loved, Patrick Swayze Christmas! We're going to put it in an invention exchange where it has absolutely no relevance whatsoever and it doesn't make sense! Nostalgia! Now don't you feel 13 again?" "Hey, lookit how Kinga is a commentary on binge culture and commercialism! Isn't her over-the-top greed a veiled jab at the Netflix model and the entertainment industry itself? Aren't we naughty for biting the hand that feeds us so blatantly and yet cleverly?" "Here's this episode's catch phrase! We do all of these at one time so we can't let the phrase grow organically over the course of a season and use it where it fits, so we're going to repeat it 12 times in one show, even if it doesn't make any sense, so you and the other fans can have something to share to make you feel like you're in on the joke!" Never before have I felt, as a audience member, as a viewer, as a MSTie, mocked. I’ve never before felt like the riffers and the show makers were laughing at the fans, not with the fans, until I watched Atlantic Rim. I can accept the movie choice, even though I think it’s beneath MST3K standards. What is unacceptable is the cynical self-awareness and self-congratulation for being the “right people” making the show, the hubris of throwing every piece of nostalgia possible at the wall while winking at the camera about how meta it all is, and pretending that the showmakers don’t really condone this, it’s a comment on the disposability of binge watching, here-today-gone-tomorrow pop culture, and aren’t we clever for embracing it while we’re really mocking it, and you’re in on it too, dear fans, we love you, don’t we? Ignore the nagging feeling that you’ve been very deliberately marketed to, that the show is somehow talking down to you, in a way you can’t quite put your finger on, mocking you for taking it too seriously, for not relaxing since it’s just a show, at least until it asks you to take it seriously, to give it your money, your time, and your emotional labor. This is not the MST3K I want to be a fan of, and I can only hope that the creator(s) come to their senses soon and realize that although the old show was made by people who were amusing themselves, they ended up making a show that amused the fans as well. This version of MST3K is made by the creators for the creators, and whether the audience has fun or not is secondary to pushing all the correct buttons to make them feel 13 again.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 3:45:03 GMT -5
I just want them to put the middle host segment back
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Post by majorjoe23 on Dec 3, 2018 7:50:33 GMT -5
Never before have I felt, as a audience member, as a viewer, as a MSTie, mocked. I’ve never before felt like the riffers and the show makers were laughing at the fans, not with the fans, until I watched Atlantic Rim. I can accept the movie choice, even though I think it’s beneath MST3K standards. What is unacceptable is the cynical self-awareness and self-congratulation for being the “right people” making the show, the hubris of throwing every piece of nostalgia possible at the wall while winking at the camera about how meta it all is, and pretending that the showmakers don’t really condone this, it’s a comment on the disposability of binge watching, here-today-gone-tomorrow pop culture, and aren’t we clever for embracing it while we’re really mocking it, and you’re in on it too, dear fans, we love you, don’t we? Ignore the nagging feeling that you’ve been very deliberately marketed to, that the show is somehow talking down to you, in a way you can’t quite put your finger on, mocking you for taking it too seriously, for not relaxing since it’s just a show, at least until it asks you to take it seriously, to give it your money, your time, and your emotional labor. This is not the MST3K I want to be a fan of, and I can only hope that the creator(s) come to their senses soon and realize that although the old show was made by people who were amusing themselves, they ended up making a show that amused the fans as well. This version of MST3K is made by the creators for the creators, and whether the audience has fun or not is secondary to pushing all the correct buttons to make them feel 13 again. At the risk of being labeled a a fan who enjoys a product that now is mocking him, I don’t get this. So the old show was made by people who were amusing themselves. So basically they were making a show to amuse themselves and we were lucky in that it amused us too. This version is made by the creators, for the creators. So they’re essentially making a show to amuse themselves. But that is somehow bad in this case, when it’s what the original cast was doing? It sounds like the variable here is you, not them.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Dec 3, 2018 8:28:16 GMT -5
Remember when you watched MST3K and you felt like you were laughing with them? Now it feels like the people making the show are laughing *at* the audience. "Here, here's a piece of the old show that you loved, Patrick Swayze Christmas! We're going to put it in an invention exchange where it has absolutely no relevance whatsoever and it doesn't make sense! Nostalgia! Now don't you feel 13 again?" "Hey, lookit how Kinga is a commentary on binge culture and commercialism! Isn't her over-the-top greed a veiled jab at the Netflix model and the entertainment industry itself? Aren't we naughty for biting the hand that feeds us so blatantly and yet cleverly?" "Here's this episode's catch phrase! We do all of these at one time so we can't let the phrase grow organically over the course of a season and use it where it fits, so we're going to repeat it 12 times in one show, even if it doesn't make any sense, so you and the other fans can have something to share to make you feel like you're in on the joke!" Never before have I felt, as a audience member, as a viewer, as a MSTie, mocked. I’ve never before felt like the riffers and the show makers were laughing at the fans, not with the fans, until I watched Atlantic Rim. I can accept the movie choice, even though I think it’s beneath MST3K standards. What is unacceptable is the cynical self-awareness and self-congratulation for being the “right people” making the show, the hubris of throwing every piece of nostalgia possible at the wall while winking at the camera about how meta it all is, and pretending that the showmakers don’t really condone this, it’s a comment on the disposability of binge watching, here-today-gone-tomorrow pop culture, and aren’t we clever for embracing it while we’re really mocking it, and you’re in on it too, dear fans, we love you, don’t we? Ignore the nagging feeling that you’ve been very deliberately marketed to, that the show is somehow talking down to you, in a way you can’t quite put your finger on, mocking you for taking it too seriously, for not relaxing since it’s just a show, at least until it asks you to take it seriously, to give it your money, your time, and your emotional labor. This is not the MST3K I want to be a fan of, and I can only hope that the creator(s) come to their senses soon and realize that although the old show was made by people who were amusing themselves, they ended up making a show that amused the fans as well. This version of MST3K is made by the creators for the creators, and whether the audience has fun or not is secondary to pushing all the correct buttons to make them feel 13 again. I'm not sure I would go as far as all of that. I really don't think the show is mocking me. I just don't think it takes me, or other fans, seriously. Maybe that's the problem with having fans of something make new versions of the things that they're fans of. They make a product they they are amused by and want to see and think other fans want, based on their nostalgia but not much else; vs the original creators making something that they thought was good and amused them at the same time, without the considerations of legacy or nostalgia. Maybe they just need more writers from the old show that understand the tone and how to write a riff. Like Frank and Trace. Or Mary Jo. Like, I know I sound a bit fatalist and over reactionary, but I don't think that the new show is inexorably broken, I just think that it needs tweaking.
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Post by travis on Dec 3, 2018 10:00:41 GMT -5
Was anyone else disappointed that they cut out the credits to the movies this season?! I know it's hard to write riffs for end credits, but it seems a little disrespectful to those who worked on the films themselves by not featuring them.
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Post by majorjoe23 on Dec 3, 2018 10:16:31 GMT -5
Didn't they cut them pretty regularly from the original run? Or at least get up and leave during them. It's one thing when there's something going on during the credits, but if it's just five minutes of white text on black background, why bother?
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Post by travis on Dec 3, 2018 11:58:35 GMT -5
Didn't they cut them pretty regularly from the original run? Or at least get up and leave during them. It's one thing when there's something going on during the credits, but if it's just five minutes of white text on black background, why bother? I think they *had* to show them all the way through back when (I remember one where they had to wait for the King Features logo before leaving the theater). I liked the gags they'd have to come up with to kill time, like the "chick flick" showdown during ALIEN FROM LA.
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Post by Troy's Dad on Dec 3, 2018 15:23:18 GMT -5
Isn't season 12 essentially using the same format as MST3K The Movie? No commercials, only two breaks during the movie?
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Post by foreign object on Dec 16, 2018 17:51:04 GMT -5
I don't have any complaints but more of a reflective criticism. I think complaint is too strong a word personally.
However.........
I was one of those, who after watching Season 11, never got on board with the reboot. I was hoping that Season 12 would be an improvement. In some ways it was, I thought the riffs and their pacing were better than 11 and I did like Frank Jr. and Kinga in both seasons.
There are just some undeniable truths that will probably make me take a pass on Season 13 (if there is one) .
Don't ask me why but I just don't dig Jonah at all. Same goes for The Skeleton Crew, and the slickness of the "show". I also didn't enjoy any of the movies in S12. I miss the really bad films from the 50's to the 70's. Even with the newer "bad" movies there are levels of competency there and not something like a Coleman Francis classic. I would've loved to have seen "They Saved Hitler's Brain" or "The Yesterday Machine" for example.
The charm of the original show was that it wasn't slick. It wasn't so self aware, and had that cable access feel that endeared it to me. I also loved the viewer mail segment at the end as it represented a simpler folksy time that has since vanished in these days of social media.
I tried, I really did try to like the reboot, both S11 and S12 but like I said before, "you can't go home again". I'll stick with Coke Classic. No amount of coaxing ever got The Beatles back together and in the end they got it right.
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