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Post by Diet Kolos on Apr 30, 2019 18:42:34 GMT -5
I still think we'd only getting 6 episodes either way. The problem with the show now is that it costs them a hundred grand more than what Netflix gives them per episode. So if they make more than six episodes they're in the hole for a huge amount of money. It's not so much about the licensing at that point. Licensing aside, the production costs too much between an LA shoot, all the actors, Union stuff, studio rental, Etc. Add in disparate schedules for actors that already have real jobs,you're never going to get more than a handful of episodes a year.
And if you did, it would cost an exorbitant amount of cash and would be horribly rushed due to scheduling. Like Season 11.
So the show's at something of a Catch-22.
Honestly, I would be okay with them restarting. Move production elsewhere cheaper (like the Twin Cities). Firing everyone in LA besides anyone willing or able to follow the show away from LA, setting up a permanent studio and a permanent writers room, and doing it the old fashioned way. Sell it to cable. At least then it would have a consistent schedule.
I'm ranting. But Joel and Co. lost sight of the "keep it simple, stupid" mantra that made MST a success in the first place, and now they're in a tough spot because of it.
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Post by BoB3K on May 1, 2019 9:35:52 GMT -5
I agree with all of johnnydrama (good name)'s complaints except the movie rights, which oddly seem to be your main gripe. The show needs to make money to survive and selling streaming and home media is about the only way a show makes money these days. Now, having said that, getting forever and all international rights is probably overkill and (yet another) thing that Netflix has caused. In the very least, you could say that it is netflix' fault for what movies they're having to get the rights for.
I do think you're spot on with the production. MST3K has from even its very beginnings been more than just a movie hosting show, but it was pretty low budget. I think one thing that has been missed in the new version is the production size--not just the shooting in LA thing, but the whole production. MST3K was originally adlib riffing with quick tossed off sketches. It then moved to scripted but still mostly one-take riffing and mostly quick tossed off one-take skits. I think this is where Joel himself mucked up the new one. They should have stuck with this approach. It even makes sense with the recast--you get a fresh batch of young energetic comedians that are all ready to make a bunch of quips and skits one take.
I've (and I know this is just my opinion ) always liked the later KTMAs quite a bit, easily as much as real eps, which if you've read along the years, they did start to peak at the movies, maybe just individually, to be ready for the adlib riffs. I think you could make very entertaining riffs this way. It's sort of what the topic-of-the-week round-table comedy guest shows do. You know that those comedians have been told ahead of time what topics/news items will be covered and all of them have had time to think about witty remarks. But for the most part, and especially with some good editing, you end up getting people saying off-the-cuff feeling funny comments. And, they don't know what each other are going to say, so that still leads to interesting avenues and interactions. I think that could work out great for MST3K. Maybe have 3-5 comedians (as puppet robots of course!) that have all prescreened the movie sit down and run through it once mostly live, recording all the dialogue. Maybe even do a few reshoots if everyone decides a bit was too fun to not try again and hit better.
Anyway, you don't have to go that far to take MST3K back to its roots, regardless of where you shoot, if you shoot all your in theater segments before lunch in mostly one take, and then come back and shoot your skits after lunch, mostly in one take, and you do that once a week with a small crew, the budget shouldn't be too bad. This is how they used to do it (i could have the before and after lunch thing flipped), and not at all how they do it now. They shoot all the eps back to back with huge full production crews and puppeteers and booth ADR and on and on.
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Post by BoB3K on May 1, 2019 9:44:03 GMT -5
Honestly, I would be okay with them restarting. Move production elsewhere cheaper (like the Twin Cities). Firing everyone in LA besides anyone willing or able to follow the show away from LA, setting up a permanent studio and a permanent writers room, and doing it the old fashioned way. Sell it to cable. At least then it would have a consistent schedule. I'm ranting. But Joel and Co. lost sight of the "keep it simple, stupid" mantra that made MST a success in the first place, and now they're in a tough spot because of it. Ha! I totally agree and was going to say something very similar. It sounds kind of silly asking for a reboot 2 years after the first reboot in 15+ years, but it isn't as crazy as it sounds. You could almost equate it to the movie they tried (and abandoned for many, many documented reasons) back in 96. We had a season (and a bleh) of a "big budget" try at MST3K and it was interesting and good and bad and terrible, and now let's try again but this time as DK says, back to their roots. Let's get 5-7 up and coming comedians, writer/performer types that want to sit in a room together and create a funny movie riff and skits and then go across the hall and make it all quick and dirty and fun, one a week for X number of weeks. I don't think it really matters where it happens as long as it's off a major set and the group of people are there every day of the X number of weeks it takes to make the season. It still might fail, but I think it would be much closer to catching the MST3K feel that made the original so fun and likeable. Oh, and the budget is obvious right? It's whatever Shout can put together and make money with and not a loss. Sometimes (often?), working on a budget has fun creative results, like let's see, a really good example would be, oh right, the original MST3K!!!
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Post by Diet Kolos on May 1, 2019 14:18:47 GMT -5
Yeah, I feel like they've stretched this format, this way of making the show, out to its limit. If you can't get the whole cast together long enough to make more than 6 episodes, or if you can't AFFORD to make more than 6 episodes, and you can't even get the green light to make more than 6 episodes every 18 months, then what's the point? Actors will move on to other projects. Your writer's room will fall apart. There's no incentive or money to innovate your sets or props or anything else in the downtime. And it'll be more expensive to put these pieces back together every year and a half.
And for what? 6 episodes that Netflix will put stricter and stricter controls and demands on? That they'll restrict you from putting out on DVD and syndicating? That they won't pay the whole cost for?
At the beginning of the Kickstarter, nearly 4 years ago, everyone knew that Netflix was the target. That Netflix was the golden ticket to mass market exposure.
Know what's happened in those 4 years? Netflix original content has EXPLODED. In 2015, Netflix had fewer than 25 original programs. Now? There's nearly 100. This year, Netflix is trying to make 700 original episodes of their own shows. 700. Versus 6 episodes of a show that comes out more than a year apart. Unless your show is a cultural phenomenon on the level of Stranger Things, it WILL GET LOST in all that clutter. Period. That Netflix exposure means NOTHING anymore.
So what do you do? Dump Netflix. You don't need it. The point isn't exposure anymore, it's survival and propagation. Find a network that will CARE that you're on it, set up a stable shop, and pump out season after season while you can. This is Peak TV. Dozens of shows have multiyear runs I'm sure none us here have ever seen. The point is that they get MADE. Its not about the prestige anymore, its about survival.
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Post by majorjoe23 on May 1, 2019 16:24:05 GMT -5
The new season will be on DVD, I believe the restriction Netflix puts on physical releases is one year. So around Thanksgiving.
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Post by Megalon on May 1, 2019 16:48:29 GMT -5
Honestly, I would be okay with them restarting. Move production elsewhere cheaper (like the Twin Cities). Firing everyone in LA besides anyone willing or able to follow the show away from LA, setting up a permanent studio and a permanent writers room, and doing it the old fashioned way. I would also be okay with this. But whether it's feasible or not probably depends on one thing: whether the new show is gaining a new young audience. Because if the kids are going crazy for the new MST3k, then Shout/Joel/Netflix aren't going to re-tool things just to please us grognards.
Personally, in my own anecdotal experience, I haven't seen the show catch fire with a younger crowd. In the years since Season 11 dropped, I have yet to see more than a small handful of people (I only remember 1 person on Reddit) say that they started watching the show with Season 11. Every forum (Reddit, mst3kinfo, etc.) seems to be populated by fans of the old show. In which case, Joel might well have a problem on his hands. He has created MST3k-for-a-new-generation, but the new generation has (apparently) failed to show up. So maybe falling back on old production methods is the way to go (move back to the Midwest, hire full-time writers and actors, etc.), because that's clearly what we, the old-timers, would prefer. And if we're the only viewers...
Of course, it could be the exact opposite of what I say. Maybe the show is winning a new young audience. How would we know? Netflix doesn't release viewership data. All we really have to go on is forum participation, and I'm not even sure my data-points are up-to-date. Maybe there's some new hot-spot where the kids are discussing MST3k that I'm not aware of. You never know.
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Post by travis on May 2, 2019 13:50:38 GMT -5
I'd also really like to see the show get back to its roots and go the "artisan" lower budget production route. Yeah, I feel like they've stretched this format, this way of making the show, out to its limit. If you can't get the whole cast together long enough to make more than 6 episodes, or if you can't AFFORD to make more than 6 episodes, and you can't even get the green light to make more than 6 episodes every 18 months, then what's the point? Actors will move on to other projects. Your writer's room will fall apart. There's no incentive or money to innovate your sets or props or anything else in the downtime. And it'll be more expensive to put these pieces back together every year and a half. And for what? 6 episodes that Netflix will put stricter and stricter controls and demands on? That they'll restrict you from putting out on DVD and syndicating? That they won't pay the whole cost for? At the beginning of the Kickstarter, nearly 4 years ago, everyone knew that Netflix was the target. That Netflix was the golden ticket to mass market exposure. Know what's happened in those 4 years? Netflix original content has EXPLODED. In 2015, Netflix had fewer than 25 original programs. Now? There's nearly 100. This year, Netflix is trying to make 700 original episodes of their own shows. 700. Versus 6 episodes of a show that comes out more than a year apart. Unless your show is a cultural phenomenon on the level of Stranger Things, it WILL GET LOST in all that clutter. Period. That Netflix exposure means NOTHING anymore. So what do you do? Dump Netflix. You don't need it. The point isn't exposure anymore, it's survival and propagation. Find a network that will CARE that you're on it, set up a stable shop, and pump out season after season while you can. This is Peak TV. Dozens of shows have multiyear runs I'm sure none us here have ever seen. The point is that they get MADE. Its not about the prestige anymore, its about survival. You make some good points here. We'll be lucky if we get another season on Netflix, since their trend now tends to be cancel a show after 2 or 3 seasons.
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Post by ProjectedPaul on May 2, 2019 15:35:41 GMT -5
I think we will get another season from Netflix. The key is to understanding the cost plus model of the licensing deals Netflix employs. news.yahoo.com/heres-real-reason-why-netflix-160300596.htmlwww.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/netflix-cost-plus-model-tv-shows-revenue-upside.htmlI think Joel and Shout Factory played it right by licensing the 12th season of the show at a slight financial loss for them, with the intent of turning a profit through the pledge drive, as well as merchandising, ancillary deals through DVDs, comic books, Pop Funko figures, live tours, etc. On top of that, the vast majority of the 11th season was funded using Kickstarter. I still thinks it makes sense from a cost/benefit analysis for Netflix to renew them. I think MST3k will be closer to Bojack Horseman and Grace & Frankie (which are still going) compared to Santa Clarita Diet. MST3k doesn't cost Netflix too much money. On top of that, Netflix is facing more intense competition, not just from Amazon and Hulu. Disney is launching their Disney Plus service, and Apple will soon have Apple TV+. Time Warner and Comcast's NBC Universal will also be launching new streaming services. Time Warner and Comcast NBC Universal are reportedly not going to renew the rights allowing Netflix to offer reruns of "Friends" and "The Office" respectively. Studies have shown that a disproportionate amount of the programming viewed by Netflix subscribers is of older, catalog show, which will be a huge blow to Netflix. It would make sense to me for Netflix to prioritize subscriber loyalty, and which original programs their subscribers are regularly viewing. They need to determine which of their original shows keep their subscribers paying, to deter them from signing up for a rival streaming service. If MST3k fans keep subscribing to Netflix in-between season, that'll help. I think it's helpful that MST3k has these live tours. Those tours act as free advertising for Netflix and crate buzz and passion for the show. Just this year the Center for Puppetry Arts in Atlanta inducted a set of Crow and Tom Servo puppets into their permanent display. I can't think of other Netflix shows that do multi-city live tours with the cast. It's very unique among the Netflix line up. Plus, don't forget that the fandom is big enough to also support the RiffTrax live shows and Kickstarter projects every year.
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Post by Megalon on May 2, 2019 16:13:30 GMT -5
I think we will get another season from Netflix. I hope so. But for me, it's not just about getting another season. It's about getting more than 6 episodes every 1-2 years. If that's the norm going forth, then I think Joel & Co. need to rethink how they're doing things.
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Post by vgaddict on May 2, 2019 16:42:38 GMT -5
Off-topic, but I heard the live tour will be Joel's last time riffing.
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Post by ProjectedPaul on May 2, 2019 18:19:33 GMT -5
Off-topic, but I heard the live tour will be Joel's last time riffing. I wouldn't say that the absence of Jonah on the tour is a bad sign. I think the reason that this will be Joel's last time on a riffing tour has to do with his age. Joel is 59 now. It can be uncomfortable being on a tour bus for a multi-city tour for such a length of time, especially at his age. Also, Jonah and the cast have other projects that they are involved in. Note that Jonah and Felicia are booked to attend the following convention in November of this year, around the same time as the tour: louisvillesupercon.com/guests/
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Post by vgaddict on May 2, 2019 20:12:49 GMT -5
Off-topic, but I heard the live tour will be Joel's last time riffing. I wouldn't say that the absence of Jonah on the tour is a bad sign. I think the reason that this will be Joel's last time on a riffing tour has to do with his age. Joel is 59 now. It can be uncomfortable being on a tour bus for a multi-city tour for such a length of time, especially at his age. Also, Jonah and the cast have other projects that they are involved in. Note that Jonah and Felicia are booked to attend the following convention in November of this year, around the same time as the tour: louisvillesupercon.com/guests/I think that's part of why Joel chose a new cast for the revival. The cast of the original MST3K are getting up there in years.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 21:34:56 GMT -5
I think that's part of why Joel chose a new cast for the revival. The cast of the original MST3K are getting up there in years. billcorbettsfunhouse.libsyn.com/funhouse-fam-focus-mary-jo-pehl Check out this episode of Bill's podcast with Mary Jo. Towards the last half hour, they discuss their feelings towards the revival. They are totally cool with it, but I don't think they think they are too old.
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Post by Diet Kolos on May 2, 2019 21:55:36 GMT -5
Go tell Trace and Frank that they're too old while they're currently on their tour of the country. I'm sure they'll agree with you and promptly retire.
Joel didn't get new people and not the original cast because the original cast was "too old"; he got new people to create internet buzz to raise money and forgot to ask the original cast if they wanted any involvement before the Kickstarter went live, alienating some of them. Particularly Trace, with whom Joel had been working with regarding a revival the first time such plans were bandied about back in ~2013 when Bill Hader was supposed to host.
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Post by Megalon on May 2, 2019 22:22:47 GMT -5
If the goal with the reboot was to capture a younger audience (and it almost certainly was), then starting with a new cast was an absolute necessity. That's just the way show-business works. So yes, while I would love to see an MST3k revival with the old cast, just as I would love to see an SNL spin-off/revival with Martin Short, Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal, Dana Carvey, and Jon Lovitz, there's no way such a show would attract a young audience.
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