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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 22:50:57 GMT -5
I didnt like it. Never even made it through the Season 11 list, stalling out after Starcrash, which was terribly disappointing itself. Felt that was an appropriate place to bury this latest reanimation. It just didn't work, it never came together. The things that grated in the first couple episodes - outlined several times over by various people on this site - persisted, even became more noticeable, irritating. Not only that, but - yes - all the hindsight criticisms on how that kickstarter money could have been more wisely directed and spent only makes it that much worse. The suggestions that have been offered here are so much better than what they chose to do. Joel blew it, plain and simple. And that's the worst part to accept as an unrepentant Joel worshipper. I, too, bailed after Starcrash, although I did see a few of the later shows out of order with some friends. I think the reason I liked the few episodes I did was simply because the movies were so insane ( Carnival Magic, Cry Wilderness). This is not an original complaint, but if I had to use one word to summarize the reboot, it would be "over-produced." OK... that's two words and a hyphen, but at least I didn't ask for funding to do it.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Jan 11, 2020 18:03:49 GMT -5
Well, lookie there. We appear to be at a stalemate, essentially. Pretty even split. Reinforcing my point that if averaged out among all opinions, most people would say overall it was "okay".
Which proves what a disaster Season 12 really is. Remove that and I'd say it was good.
And Bob is right. The whole thing was neutered from the start by a complete mismanagement of budget. I know everyone hates him, but Jim Mallon would have been instrumental in keeping this new show on track financially. You wouldn't have gotten any cameos for season 11, but I feel like in the end it would have made for a longer-lasting product that made money.
I think the biggest issue was Joel promising more episodes for more money to begin with.
At a certain point past a certain amount of money they made on the Kickstarter, they should have just put that extra money towards making the 12 episodes better. Or hell, PAYING FOR THEM 100%. Because it's my understanding the kickstarter funding money was factoring in licensing amounts that a distributor would pay to fully fund the episodes, so they weren't actually asking for how much it would take to make an actual episode.
And then of course Joel went completely overboard with concept designers and prop builders and wood carvings and all sorts of extraneous nonsense stuff that cost way too much money and didn't translate into the show at all. With the extra fundraising they had to do for Season 11 AND for season 12, it makes me wonder if they've even broke even on the costs of Mallon's buyout and the production of both seasons.
This is a important point. We talk about Joel having the rights to MST3K, but it's really Shout Factory and Joel who share the rights. (According to a Wall Street Journal article dated April 12, 2017, "In partnership with Mr. Hodgson, who left the show in 1993, Shout bought "MST3K" for an amount in the seven figures, a deal that took about six years to negotiate.") So of course Shout wants to recoup/make money on their investment but how does that happen without new episodes being produced that can generate new DVD and merchandise sales? Joel turned to the live tours as his focus about a month after Season 11 premiered, they've remained what he's put the most energy toward, and Shout doesn't see a dime of any proceeds from those tours (assuming there are any) nor from any merchandise sold at the shows or afterward, since they are produced by an Alternaversal LLC spinoff called Alternaversal Live Shows, LLC. It's not outrageous to think that Shout Factory might not be happy with the way Joel has handled things from his end. It's in Shout's best interest to get new shows produced somehow. My question is can they get that done with Joel Hodgson? Do they have the ability to make new MST3K without him, or require him to make shows for them even if he doesn't want to?
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Post by BoB3K on Jan 13, 2020 1:19:43 GMT -5
It's not outrageous to think that Shout Factory might not be happy with the way Joel has handled things from his end. It's in Shout's best interest to get new shows produced somehow. My question is can they get that done with Joel Hodgson? Do they have the ability to make new MST3K without him, or require him to make shows for them even if he doesn't want to? The Shout! angle is very interesting, and I don't know that we've heard anything out of them during all this have we? I don't really peruse their site or twitter, has anyone heard anything out of them about NuMST3K?
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Post by Afgncaap5 on Jan 14, 2020 12:22:43 GMT -5
As a Blake Edwards fan I appreciated that in a kinda full-circle fashion.
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Post by crowschmo on Jan 14, 2020 18:02:12 GMT -5
Well, I don't think Max is basically Frank, or that Kinga is basically Pearl or that Jonah is basically Joel. Not even close.
I went with "it was ok" for this poll.
I liked some eps in Season 11, like Cry Wilderness and Avalanche and the Wizard ones. I like Jonah, and I don't mind the new voices for the 'Bots (except Gypsy who didn't really have "character", she was just - some lady's voice. And not, well, GYPSY enough).
Kinga and Max - meh. Okay idea, but too overdone. Like, hitting us over the head with the Mads' progeny thing.
The humor was okay for the most part, but it didn't feel like it was some dude and his 'bots watching a movie and making snarky remarks, it was - I really can't think of the right words to describe the feel of the show. A lot of others have mentioned "over-produced" or "slick"; I guess that's it. Kinga just kept harping on the fact that it was a show and she needed ratings to conquer the world. It was more like it was Netflix and not a Forrester carrying on the family tradition of "crazy-evil." Too over-the-top and sterile and not enough quiet moments with Jonah, Crow and Servo just chillin'. And like others have mentioned, it didn't seem spontaneous enough, and just - a bunch of disconnected entities slapped together.
Moon 13: Just too much going on. Too many people involved. All those Bone-heads. Not quite the same as Gerry and Sylvia. Too corporate. We have enough of that in every aspect of our lives, we don't need it on what was once described as a little "cow town puppet show." It should be Kinga and Max's little bubble of existence, not, well - NETFLIX.
Couldn't get through Season 12. The only ep I watched from beginning to end so far is the first one, Mac and Me. I skipped through the others just to get the gist of what was going on. I appreciated seeing Josh back, though, once again, it was pandering and a hitting over the head kind of feel and not organic if you get me. And putting an old song in there, just to pander and say, "LOOK! Something from the OG!" So it had more of that forced feel than the previous season.
This is what I don't like about the newer Rifftrax, too. It's just Mike, Kevin and Bill INCESSANTLY talking over a movie, there's no room to breathe and the jokes just aren't hitting anymore. Everything from Rifftrax and the new MST3K feel like they are trying too hard and they can't recapture that quirky, casual, spontaneous feel of the original.
BTW: I did see a live show (the tour before this current one) and I laughed quite a BIT at that. That had more of the feel I was used to. I don't know why they can't capture that essence in the series on TV. They should just pretend it's a live show and stop over-doing everything.
Edit: Or, hell, they can just RECORD the live shows and air those on some outlet. Why don't they just get a YouTube channel?
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Post by travis on Jan 16, 2020 16:58:34 GMT -5
I'm in-between "It was ok" and "I liked it." I echo others sentiments re: the piece-meal assembly line production. I don't think the cast was bad at all, they just never got the time to gel. Not having everyone in the same room to do the theater segments was a crime. I would have preferred a shorter season 11 honestly, that way more time could have been taken to get the "recipe" right. MST3k doesn't need artisan laser wood carvings and 3-d printing when some Tupperware, thrift store left-overs and hot glue would do just as well.
The live shows IMO have been wonderful, they feel more like the MST3k we know and love. A simple puppet show and a cheesey movie.
I am very curious to see where the next chapter of MST3k will take us. Hopefully the Netflix deal won't prevent them from shopping it around to another service (or prevent Shout from releasing their own direct-to-video eps).
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Post by madisoncarter on Jan 16, 2020 23:23:32 GMT -5
I got 20 more MST episodes out of it, including some movies I've long wanted to see on the show. I'm good with it.
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Post by zombiewhacker on Jan 17, 2020 21:53:44 GMT -5
Well, Netflix cancelled the series and I still haven't watched a single episode. I wonder if it would be worth it to pick up Season 11 on DVD simply to watch two shows, Avalanche and Cry Wilderness.
Seems like kind of a waste to drop $35-$45 just to catch a handful of episodes, but hey, that's what I did for fifteen years with the original MST3K. 😀
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Post by fathermushroom on Jan 22, 2020 9:36:05 GMT -5
I liked it okay--in proportion to how much I liked the movies they riffed. My favorites of Season 11 were "Beast of Hollow Mountain," "Reptilicus," and "The Land Time Forgot," because IMO those movies are not too hard to enjoy on their own. I have a terrible time with the 80s Sci-Fi and Fantasy eps, and some I just found profoundly depressing, like "Carnival Magic." Season 12 I could barely get through, starting immediately with "Mac and Me."
I thought the new characters were okay. I sort of felt that Patton barely got his groove on, and would love to give him more time. Some of my issues are extremely personal and I don't expect anyone else to care--for example, the choice of "Kinga" as a name didn't sit right with me and put me slightly off-kilter from the get-go. It just sort of interfered with my ability to tune into the humor, like a gnat whining in your ear.
I agree with everyone else on the general tone--it makes a big difference that everyone's not sitting in the theater together, and that riff sequences are pieced together after the fact. The original idea for the show is simple but brilliant, and it did best when it was kept that way--a bunch of writers watching the movie together, getting each other to laugh, editing down the riffs to a manageable script, and then shooting it in one or two sittings. You didn't achieve comedy perfection, but it was pretty damn good, and the result overall was heads and shoulders above the Netflix equivalent. Too much tweaking and it kills the vibe. This is a concept that's not meant to be perfect.
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Post by crowschmo on Jan 23, 2020 14:14:07 GMT -5
It feels like a lot of entertainment today (I hate to be the old fart who says, "back in MY day...") is manufactured in a lab or in computers. Statistics for "success" are typed in to a computer somewhere and "results" are spit out, like - who's going to be the NEXT Elvis or Beatles?, (instead of being allowed to be just themselves) what "formula" is going to work for a bestseller?, what sequence of notes are going to make a hit song? (I think, like, two guys are responsible for the majority of chart topping songs for the past decade or so), what worked before for a hit TV show?, how many sequels can we milk out of this franchise?
Nothing feels home-y anymore, or organic as I pointed out in my previous post. It almost feels like desperation to get to something that a good portion of the population will like and is all just a money grab. (Of course, a lot of people, unfortunately, fall for the hype and "like" something because it's shoved down our throats and we're told we're supposed to like it).
Original shows are passed up and not given a chance. And when they actually DO come along - guess what? They usually land or are a success. Some still don't get a chance or are niche shows with not a lot of viewers, but some really become either cult classics, or really start to gain momentum because they're different and people "get" them.
Shows like MST3K, The Wonder Years, Malcolm in the Middle, Farscape, Breaking Bad, BoJack Horseman. I want more of those. Not regurgitated vomit.
So, I think the problem with these new seasons of MST3K is that "formula" feel. We needed more of the folksy feel. And I don't know in this day and age, at least not on profit driven platforms, we're going to get that lightning in a bottle again. They need to be allowed to breathe and do it more like the old fashioned way.
Like I said before, maybe they should just use a YouTube channel.
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Post by zombiewhacker on Jan 23, 2020 16:05:56 GMT -5
I've noticed fans referencing the return of Joe Bob Briggs in a few threads. Did that reboot capture the spark of the original run, or was it also on autopilot?
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Post by thecrawlingeye on Jan 24, 2020 0:52:03 GMT -5
Eye see what's going on here.
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Post by BoB3K on Jan 31, 2020 12:37:52 GMT -5
Like I said before, maybe they should just use a YouTube channel. Eh. Sounds like a good idea, but from what I've heard, these days you have to be getting mulit-multi millions of views on youtube to be making any money there. I still think their best bet was to never go with Netlfix, make the series on the money they had, and then start selling direct streaming and bluray straight from Shout! the way RiffTrax does it.
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Post by zombiewhacker on Jun 19, 2020 14:50:21 GMT -5
I think one reason behind that is television itself has changed.
Most of us veteran MSTies remember an age before home video and infomercials when bad movies like Track of the Moonbeast and Santa Claus Conquers the Martians and The Eye Creatures would play on commercial TV unriffed every single night of the week.
Since PCs and video games largely didn't exist back then either, many of us were "forced" to endure these cinematic turkeys just to kill a few hours each day. As a result, we built up a natural resistance to deep hurting: our tolerance for pain is that much higher... putting us at a distinct advantage where MST3K is concerned. Kids today have so many more options, why would any of them watch a bad movie if they didn't really have to?
Also our familiarity with bad movies was often, ironically, MST3K's biggest hook. I don't know about you guys, but my first forays into the show were eps where I'd previously seen the movies themselves unriffed. "They're doing that Santa martian movie? Oh, I'd love to see that!" Or "They riffed that guy in a reptile suit movie or that geeky space alien flick or whatever? Count me in!"
And that's how MST3K grabbed many of us: come for the Gorgo, stay for the Torgo. Today's viewers have no similar point of reference that would likewise bring them on board.
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Post by edgecase41 on Dec 4, 2020 14:41:59 GMT -5
It took three years but I'm now finally caught up. When season 11 first premiered on Netflix I was sort of underwhelmed, so it took me a while to get into it. I really got into it after watching "Starcrash" earlier this year. Now my opinion is completely different.
I love the cast, especially Jonah. He has a great deadpan delivery and during the skits he interacts with the bots very realistically, both of which are characteristics of Joel's style. And by "realistically" I just mean that they're interacting with the bots to a degree where I forget that I'm watching puppets. With Mike a lot of times I get jarred out of that level of immersion because it doesn't seem like he's quite as immersed. Before the reboot I thought it might have something to do with Joel being the creator, but now after seeing Jonah perform I think it might have more to do with a natural ability or their personalities in general.
So overall I'm very enthusiastic about this ensemble: Jonah, Baron, Hampton, Felicia, & Patton. If I had to compare and contrast I would have to say I like Jonah nearly on par with Joel. That's not a damning indictment against Mike because all three hosts knock it out of the park. I like Baron better than either Kevin or Josh, although both Kevin and Josh are brilliant in their own ways. Trace and Joel are my favorite performers, so I love Trace's Crow the most. But I like Hampton better than Bill and that says a lot because I love Bill's Crow. I like Patton equally as much as I like Frank. Although I like Mary Jo better than Felicia, I still think Felicia is still pretty darn solid.
I hope Joel can find a way to reassemble this cast, get back in the studio, and get the show back on track.
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