Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
|
Post by Torgo on Apr 6, 2021 17:46:58 GMT -5
Like seriously, Hampton and Baron don't even puppeteer, and the puppeteers in the theater just sit there through most of it. And "green screen people" get green screened out with the green screen they're working against. It's not that hard.
|
|
|
Post by comedyc on Apr 6, 2021 18:35:27 GMT -5
Well, if I know anything about show business, it's that once you achieve a certain level, you do not want to go back. Unfortunately, MST3k went large budget, so anything less would be backsliding.
|
|
|
Post by mylungswereaching on Apr 6, 2021 18:40:44 GMT -5
The Mads scenes can be filmed all at once. It's the theater scenes that needs to be practiced more. The timing just has to be there or it doesn't work. So I can see three different schedules. 1) The writers are full time working together. They write the mads scenes first and then the movie scenes over time. For the main writers, its a full time job. 2) The Mads scenes outside of the theater are filmed all at once. Felicia and Patton can fly in one time and film them all as quickly as possible on their schedule. 3) The theater scenes are filmed separately. They take somewhere around 3 to 5 days to film each rather than 3 to 5 hours like with season 11 and 12. So if we have a 12 episode season it would take 3 months or less. If Jonah, Baron and Hampton are too busy, you would need to replace them. Tv is filmed differently now but how much of that is because half of the stuff on TV now is reality TV of one sort or another. The writing scenario your propose is also problematic, because writers in today's TV climate have to have their drafts in before production on seasons start, so they can book another job and pay bills. It's been that way for a while now (especially on streaming and cable), except for shows with extended schedules that play out over most of the year with over 20 episodes where full time writing staffs are probably preferable. These shows are on big networks like CBS. I've listen to Marc Bernardin talk about this process on the Fatman Beyond podcast. MST is not the only show that does this and they aren't going to change it to appease folks on a message board. Then production starts and they have all their actors on their set for a predetermined period of time so everyone can work around their other projects (when an actor drops out of something due to "scheduling conflicts," that means they just couldn't make the scenario work). This is were the host segments are filmed in MST's case. Then everyone leaves and the theater segment process begins with Jonah, Baron, Hampton, and the puppeteers. During season 11 they recorded riffs from Jonah, Baron, and Hampton separately. I don't know if that was due to scheduling conflicts, but they changed their tune on it. During season 12 they decided to record the trio together, the official reason was to "maintain the energy of the live shows." At any rate it was done with time codes and still separate from the puppeteers, and the riff is created a lot like a riff from Rifftrax is currently created. Then the puppeteers match their motions to the available audio of the riggers and the video from the film. This is the modern version of the format, whether we like it or not. And you also need to consider it's not also a scheduling point, it's also a payroll issue. If you keep the actors there every day, you need to pay them for their time. If production can get what they need from them more efficiently than the way the old show did it, then that's what they're going to do, that way they just have to pay the puppeteers and start on post. The ideal way from an artistic standpoint isn't always ideal for who is working on it. An auteur could spend all day setting up one shot of a sunset, but the overall bottom line most of the time is that they need to keep rolling all day and keep moving. They wouldn't have the actors there year round. They'd be there as long as it took to film the scenes that were already written. A core set of writers would have a longer season then the actors would. If the current method of filming was to rush through everything as fast a possible on just one or two takes, I'm not surprised I find it difficult to find any shows I like. In my system, the writers would spend a reasonable amount of time writing the scripts. Then they'd bring in the mads when it fit their schedule and film their scenes all at once as quick as possible. Then the actors in theater would film. They wouldn't be standing around doing nothing. They advantage of MST3k theater scenes is there are no costume changes, no scenery changes etc. It's just sit in the chairs and read your lines. I just googled, how long does it take to film a tv show. The most common answer was about a week for a half hour sitcom. I just can't see trying to shoot a 2 hour show in one day and expect it to come out all that good.
|
|
Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
|
Post by Torgo on Apr 6, 2021 18:53:46 GMT -5
The writing scenario your propose is also problematic, because writers in today's TV climate have to have their drafts in before production on seasons start, so they can book another job and pay bills. It's been that way for a while now (especially on streaming and cable), except for shows with extended schedules that play out over most of the year with over 20 episodes where full time writing staffs are probably preferable. These shows are on big networks like CBS. I've listen to Marc Bernardin talk about this process on the Fatman Beyond podcast. MST is not the only show that does this and they aren't going to change it to appease folks on a message board. Then production starts and they have all their actors on their set for a predetermined period of time so everyone can work around their other projects (when an actor drops out of something due to "scheduling conflicts," that means they just couldn't make the scenario work). This is were the host segments are filmed in MST's case. Then everyone leaves and the theater segment process begins with Jonah, Baron, Hampton, and the puppeteers. During season 11 they recorded riffs from Jonah, Baron, and Hampton separately. I don't know if that was due to scheduling conflicts, but they changed their tune on it. During season 12 they decided to record the trio together, the official reason was to "maintain the energy of the live shows." At any rate it was done with time codes and still separate from the puppeteers, and the riff is created a lot like a riff from Rifftrax is currently created. Then the puppeteers match their motions to the available audio of the riggers and the video from the film. This is the modern version of the format, whether we like it or not. And you also need to consider it's not also a scheduling point, it's also a payroll issue. If you keep the actors there every day, you need to pay them for their time. If production can get what they need from them more efficiently than the way the old show did it, then that's what they're going to do, that way they just have to pay the puppeteers and start on post. The ideal way from an artistic standpoint isn't always ideal for who is working on it. An auteur could spend all day setting up one shot of a sunset, but the overall bottom line most of the time is that they need to keep rolling all day and keep moving. They wouldn't have the actors there year round. They'd be there as long as it took to film the scenes that were already written. A core set of writers would have a longer season then the actors would. If the current method of filming was to rush through everything as fast a possible on just one or two takes, I'm not surprised I find it difficult to find any shows I like. In my system, the writers would spend a reasonable amount of time writing the scripts. Then they'd bring in the mads when it fit their schedule and film their scenes all at once as quick as possible. Then the actors in theater would film. They wouldn't be standing around doing nothing. They advantage of MST3k theater scenes is there are no costume changes, no scenery changes etc. It's just sit in the chairs and read your lines. I just googled, how long does it take to film a tv show. The most common answer was about a week for a half hour sitcom. I just can't see trying to shoot a 2 hour show in one day and expect it to come out all that good. The problem is whether or not any of this is preferable to the system they have now, and most show productions disagree with you. When original MST was in production, the writing staff was basically the on camera crew, which helped immensely. To an extent that is still true, they just don't have the back-up writers on their immediate call. But I have to think about which scenario is more complicated. The first has the comedic talent on set and sitting in a theater seats working puppets trying to film continuous 15 minute takes of usable material, and if they flub they have to start over again. The second involves the comedians in a booth watching scenes and reacting with their scripts, rewinding then doing another take ("Can you do that again and say it like this...," "You kind of slurred the end there, lets do another.") then doing pantomime performances after the fact. It's clear to me that the latter has the most virtues, so much so that both Rifftrax and Cinematic Titanic adopted it. Whether or not it sounds better to the viewer is a different story. The difference in delivery between original MST and the later projects is clear, but it's also clear this way works for them better.
|
|
|
Post by BoB3K on Apr 6, 2021 19:10:28 GMT -5
It won't 'work better' for them if they've lost their core fanbase and get no money on this kickstarter...
|
|
Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
|
Post by Torgo on Apr 6, 2021 19:12:22 GMT -5
It won't 'work better' for them if they've lost their core fanbase and get no money on this kickstarter... Then don't pledge. What kind of childish post is this?
|
|
|
Post by BoB3K on Apr 6, 2021 19:16:24 GMT -5
As for my off the cuff guess to DK's question, I can't see them getting more than a few million this time around unless Joel has some major idea that everyone jumps on board with. If it's just, "Hey we need more money for more seasons" it wouldn't surprise me if they get the same 500K they got for season 12.
|
|
|
Post by mylungswereaching on Apr 6, 2021 19:47:09 GMT -5
It won't 'work better' for them if they've lost their core fanbase and get no money on this kickstarter... Then don't pledge. What kind of childish post is this? If doing something the industry standard way alienates their fanbase it's not good for the product. A lot of companies go out of business that way. And I my problem was basically trying to film a 2 hour show in 4 hours without any practice. I just can't see how it can be done well.
|
|
Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
|
Post by Torgo on Apr 6, 2021 19:55:20 GMT -5
Then don't pledge. What kind of childish post is this? If doing something the industry standard way alienates their fanbase it's not good for the product. A lot of companies go out of business that way. And I my problem was basically trying to film a 2 hour show in 4 hours without any practice. I just can't see how it can be done well. If the demand isn't there it won't go forward. Supply and demand 101. The thing is that this has been the riffing method since at least 2006 (maybe earlier, taking Legend Commentaries into account). I'm just stating what is. The "Why?" is a question you'd have to ask Joel and the other people in charge. This is my understanding of it.
|
|
|
Post by Diet Kolos on Apr 6, 2021 20:08:11 GMT -5
Speaking of supply and demand. It occurs to me that the reason Joel teased the Kickstarter today, and put up a page where people can bookmark it, is to gauge that demand. Make some final adjustments on what their Kickstarter goals should be based on it.
It currently has ~8200 followers, up a bit from a few hours ago. Joel recently posted on Twitter about it. Avg pledge level per Kicktraq for the first Kickstarter was $119. That'd put them at ~$1 million currently. Assuming people donate as much, I can't imagine it'll be the case this time.
We'll have to see what exactly Joel shows us tomorrow. If its a full-fledged Season 13, you might see north of 2-3 million. If its more live tours...
|
|
Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
|
Post by Torgo on Apr 6, 2021 20:11:28 GMT -5
If it's a live tour (which probably not, with pandemic and all), I probably won't donate, since they only played Idaho on one singular date in the last three tours.
If they offer recordings of the shows, I might do one of those side reward deals.
|
|
|
Post by Megalon on Apr 6, 2021 20:37:37 GMT -5
cheerleading and groupthink ... reddit Yeah... Reddit is the last place you should go to if you want intelligent conversation. Well, okay, maybe the last place you should go is Facebook... then again, maybe it's Twitter. I guess all of social media ties for last. I avoid it like the plague. Anyway, color me cautiously optimistic regarding this news. I want MST3k to live on, and I'll be happy to see new episodes no matter what, as long as they're decent. But I'll echo what Bob3k said earlier: If this has anything to do with a live show (or any other ancillary product), then count me out. I'm only here for MST3k, the TV show. Not a comic book. Not a live show. Not a side-project. Not an MST3k-branded lunchbox. Just. The. TV. Show. If Joel thinks a live show is an acceptable substitute, then... I don't know what to say. He's lost the plot. But like I said, I'm cautiously optimistic. If Joel has learned anything from the Netflix ordeal, it's that you can't trust your baby to a baby-sitter that is a bloodsucking corporate vampire. Either stay independent, or pack it in.
|
|
|
Post by mylungswereaching on Apr 6, 2021 20:40:54 GMT -5
If doing something the industry standard way alienates their fanbase it's not good for the product. A lot of companies go out of business that way. And I my problem was basically trying to film a 2 hour show in 4 hours without any practice. I just can't see how it can be done well. If the demand isn't there it won't go forward. Supply and demand 101. The thing is that this has been the riffing method since at least 2006 (maybe earlier, taking Legend Commentaries into account). I'm just stating what is. The "Why?" is a question you'd have to ask Joel and the other people in charge. This is my understanding of it. If they want to sit in a booth when recording, I don't really care. How is RT done? Do they all write individually and e-mail the jokes to Mike. Then Mike chooses the jokes he likes and writes the script. Then they get together to record. Mike is the only one whose seen the final script prior to recording. Then reading they read the script for the first time ever while they are actually recording it while going through it as quickly as possible. That's pretty much how I've read that season 11 was done.
|
|
Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
|
Post by Torgo on Apr 6, 2021 20:56:34 GMT -5
If the demand isn't there it won't go forward. Supply and demand 101. The thing is that this has been the riffing method since at least 2006 (maybe earlier, taking Legend Commentaries into account). I'm just stating what is. The "Why?" is a question you'd have to ask Joel and the other people in charge. This is my understanding of it. If they want to sit in a booth when recording, I don't really care. How is RT done? Do they all write individually and e-mail the jokes to Mike. Then Mike chooses the jokes he likes and writes the script. Then they get together to record. Mike is the only one whose seen the final script prior to recording. Then reading they read the script for the first time ever while they are actually recording it while going through it as quickly as possible. That's pretty much how I've read that season 11 was done. That's fairly accurate to how Rifftrax is done, yes.
|
|
|
Post by jasoncinema on Apr 6, 2021 21:29:35 GMT -5
I’ve learned what this is. And the angle Joel is taking intrigues me...but, I want to learn more....
|
|