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Post by slainmonkey on May 13, 2021 10:52:24 GMT -5
I just hope that financial sustainability doesn’t become a problem, how much they earn will determine the show’s future, and if they’re able to continue making MST3K as an independent production!
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Post by intonyeon on May 13, 2021 11:42:32 GMT -5
I like the Invasion of the Neptune Men as well. That's the thing. You'll never find two people with the same lists of favorites. And the type movies I don't like on MST3k are movies that are intentionally bad. To me, the best are movies where they tried to make a great movie but just didn't have the talent, money or time. That's why I tend to like the movies from the 1950's and 60's the best. They just seem more earnestly bad back then. It seems like its more difficult to be totally incompetent but competent enough now because there are so many more resources to teach people now. I get we all have preferred eras.. I struggle to find sincerity and conviction in most of the movies in MST3K... invasion of the Neptune men as well. Occasionally they will feature something like magic voyage of sinbad, jack frost, etc which has some real artistry behind it but that is insanely rare. it's all cold 'can you believe these idiots pay us to do this' capitalism.. those super old ones that aimed at kids are even more insulting.. talk about hating the audience... the filmmakers continually put in the lowest effort possible to make the most money possible regardless of the results because hey 'the parents are paying and the kids are stupid'... just my take.. Invasion of the Neptune Men is a butchered Japanese Toku movie that starred some pretty interesting people in its production, it has history for the genre as one of the earliest examples of a Sentai film, even if it is ass. (Also Mike and The Bots complain about the reused footage which is exclusive to the US dubbed mess!)
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Post by slainmonkey on May 13, 2021 13:00:08 GMT -5
I get we all have preferred eras.. I struggle to find sincerity and conviction in most of the movies in MST3K... invasion of the Neptune men as well. Occasionally they will feature something like magic voyage of sinbad, jack frost, etc which has some real artistry behind it but that is insanely rare. it's all cold 'can you believe these idiots pay us to do this' capitalism.. those super old ones that aimed at kids are even more insulting.. talk about hating the audience... the filmmakers continually put in the lowest effort possible to make the most money possible regardless of the results because hey 'the parents are paying and the kids are stupid'... just my take.. Invasion of the Neptune Men is a butchered Japanese Toku movie that starred some pretty interesting people in its production, it has history for the genre as one of the earliest examples of a Sentai film, even if it is ass. (Also Mike and The Bots complain about the reused footage which is exclusive to the US dubbed mess!) I mean to a degree I guess that’s fair they riff on that, given it’s the US dub they’re riffing on. There were a lot of Japanese movies around that time that suffered from similar butchering at the time, and are likely more riffable for that very reason...I mean particularly when the original Japanese version come far closer to actually being a genuinely decent movies!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2021 13:01:42 GMT -5
Most of the movies on MST3K were made with some amount of "real artistry." Just because a movie is bad doesn't mean there's no intrinsic artistic value to it.
And a movie can still be made solely (or, at least, primarily) for the financial return, but that also doesn't mean that nobody involved had no artistic ambitions with it. I don't see "hating the audience" in Neptune Men, I just see a woeful attempt at creating an action film for young audiences.
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Post by dudehitscar on May 13, 2021 13:01:45 GMT -5
I get we all have preferred eras.. I struggle to find sincerity and conviction in most of the movies in MST3K... invasion of the Neptune men as well. Occasionally they will feature something like magic voyage of sinbad, jack frost, etc which has some real artistry behind it but that is insanely rare. it's all cold 'can you believe these idiots pay us to do this' capitalism.. those super old ones that aimed at kids are even more insulting.. talk about hating the audience... the filmmakers continually put in the lowest effort possible to make the most money possible regardless of the results because hey 'the parents are paying and the kids are stupid'... just my take.. Invasion of the Neptune Men is a butchered Japanese Toku movie that starred some pretty interesting people in its production, it has history for the genre as one of the earliest examples of a Sentai film, even if it is ass. (Also Mike and The Bots complain about the reused footage which is exclusive to the US dubbed mess!) is this supposed to be a counter argument to what I said?
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Post by dudehitscar on May 13, 2021 13:22:25 GMT -5
Most of the movies on MST3K were made with some amount of "real artistry." Just because a movie is bad doesn't mean there's no intrinsic artistic value to it. AGREED.
And a movie can still be made solely (or, at least, primarily) for the financial return, but that also doesn't mean that nobody involved had no artistic ambitions with it. AGREEDI don't see "hating the audience" in Neptune Men DISAGREE I just see a woeful attempt at creating an action film for young audiences. AGREE and intentionally woeful IMO.
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Post by dudehitscar on May 13, 2021 13:39:46 GMT -5
I mean to a degree I guess that’s fair they riff on that, given it’s the US dub they’re riffing on. There were a lot of Japanese movies around that time that suffered from similar butchering at the time, and are likely more riffable for that very reason...I mean particularly when the original Japanese version come far closer to actually being a genuinely decent movies! I can only comment on the version of the film in the MST3K episode. It's a shame how the us dub versions were often quite inferior to the original films.. I mean the hitler building.. oof.. 'made in earnest'.. yeah right.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2021 13:42:58 GMT -5
Most of the movies on MST3K were made with some amount of "real artistry." Just because a movie is bad doesn't mean there's no intrinsic artistic value to it. AGREED.
And a movie can still be made solely (or, at least, primarily) for the financial return, but that also doesn't mean that nobody involved had no artistic ambitions with it. AGREEDI don't see "hating the audience" in Neptune Men DISAGREE I just see a woeful attempt at creating an action film for young audiences. AGREE and intentionally woeful IMO. OK, well I think you're wrong. *shrug* I'm also curious as to why you think the Hitler building apparently shows open contempt for the audience. I explained the context of the Hitler building here, but in short, it's an ad for a contemporary foreign documentary about Hitler, on a large urban theater where the film probably played while Neptune Men was in production. It probably would have elicited intentional laughter from the contemporary Japanese audience, just as the similar shot of the destruction of the Japanese liberal party's headquarters would have.
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Post by dudehitscar on May 13, 2021 14:41:49 GMT -5
I don't see "hating the audience" in Neptune Men DISAGREE I just see a woeful attempt at creating an action film for young audiences. AGREE and intentionally woeful IMO. OK, well I think you're wrong. *shrug* I'm also curious as to why you think the Hitler building apparently shows open contempt for the audience. I explained the context of the Hitler building here, but in short, it's an ad for a contemporary foreign documentary about Hitler, on a large urban theater where the film probably played while Neptune Men was in production. It probably would have elicited intentional laughter from the contemporary Japanese audience, just as the similar shot of the destruction of the Japanese liberal party's headquarters would have. wait.. is the hitler building scene in the original japanese version of the film? Folks talk about how the US version added so much footage I assumed it was just in that one. my god that is even worse.. The context of where the shot comes from doesn't exclude the tastelessness of including it in a kids film.. you are making a lot of assumptions ('I'm sure the adults would have laughed').. how are you sure of that? that isn't the only time the movie chose to rub the kids nose in WW2 imagery.. writing in a chance to show a nuclear explosion and showing the aftermath of such with the burned out cities and the most BIZARRE one where the soldier are killed in a way that they disintegrate and leave behind a shadow of themselves on the wall.. just like what happened in hiroshima and nagasaki . you think the japanese parents were laughing at that? The final 'climax' battle is just as bad.. punishing the kids with real intense footage of bombings (of course right.. 'these japanese kids want as much WW2 reminders in their silly space man fighting aliens film!'..) and then mix it in with the same 4 shots of the spaceships fighting over and over (kids are too dumb to notice so why bother right?). great MST3K episode though.
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Post by mylungswereaching on May 13, 2021 15:10:52 GMT -5
It's tough to judge the merits of a movie made for a different culture. Something that seems completely normal for a Japanese person might seem really odd to a westerner.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2021 15:12:35 GMT -5
OK, well I think you're wrong. *shrug* I'm also curious as to why you think the Hitler building apparently shows open contempt for the audience. I explained the context of the Hitler building here, but in short, it's an ad for a contemporary foreign documentary about Hitler, on a large urban theater where the film probably played while Neptune Men was in production. It probably would have elicited intentional laughter from the contemporary Japanese audience, just as the similar shot of the destruction of the Japanese liberal party's headquarters would have. wait.. is the hitler building scene in the original japanese version of the film? Folks talk about how the US version added so much footage I assumed it was just in that one. my god that is even worse.. The context of where the shot comes from doesn't exclude the tastelessness of including it in a kids film.. you are making a lot of assumptions ('I'm sure the adults would have laughed').. how are you sure of that? that isn't the only time the movie chose to rub the kids nose in WW2 imagery.. writing in a chance to show a nuclear explosion and showing the aftermath of such with the burned out cities and the most BIZARRE one where the soldier are killed in a way that they disintegrate and leave behind a shadow of themselves on the wall.. just like what happened in hiroshima and nagasaki . you think the japanese parents were laughing at that? The final 'climax' battle is just as bad.. punishing the kids with real intense footage of bombings (of course right.. 'these japanese kids want as much WW2 reminders in their silly space man fighting aliens film!'..) and then mix it in with the same 4 shots of the spaceships fighting over and over (kids are too dumb to notice so why bother right?). great MST3K episode though. The wartime footage is absent in the Japanese version. That was added as stock footage (probably to pad the length since it was for TV) for the American release. The Hitler building is from the original Japanese cut. I don't understand how a shot of a (model) building with an enormous depiction of Hitler being shown blown to smithereens by alien spacecraft is tasteless except for the fact that it's Hitler's likeness being blown up. Personally, I don't think that's particularly tasteless but I'll concede that YMMV. Nevertheless, I don't think that's conclusive proof that Invasion of the Neptune Men has absolutely zero artistic value behind it and that the filmmakers (just the chief staff or everyone on the crew? what's your argument here?) were only trying to mock and punish their audience. No, I don't know for certain that Japanese audiences in 1961 laughed at the Hitler building, yes, it's an assumption. I do believe that the Hitler building shot isn't intended to be malicious and I stand by my reasoning (specifically, the similar shot of the destruction of the Japanese liberal party HQ). And I do know that people have laughed at it, I've seen so myself. The MST3K version is also evidence of that, although feel free to nitpick this argument on the grounds that people are laughing 100% solely at MST3K and not at all to the movie they're riffing. I think you're making just as many assumptions about the nature of the atomic explosions and what you consider to be WW2 imagery. How are you sure that the atomic explosion is an overt reminder of Hiroshima and not just an atomic explosion? Really all you've said here is shown that the film can be considered tasteless, specifically in the alien invasion scenes. You haven't proven --and I don't think you can-- that the people who made it were simply laughing on the way to the bank. You certainly haven't proven that there's no artistic merit at all in the entire film. Also it just seems to me that you don't know much about Japanese entertainment, much less about what's considered appropriate in children's entertainment. What you may consider tasteless is often just a matter of fact in Japan: off-hand, I can think of several Japanese-produced TV shows and movies ostensibly for children with content that we'd consider gruesome, horrific, immature, or even taboo. Kids being shot by (real) guns, monsters dismembering each other, and fictional characters based on or even directly invoking real life bastards such as Hitler. That doesn't mean, however, that all that content was the product of people trying to harm their audiences. How many children's films from Hollywood depict open displays of affection, namely kissing? That's generally avoided in Japanese entertainment for the same audience. I don't know that the reason for that is a matter of taste or not, but it's further testament to the different attitudes in the people who make these films. I'm not saying that children's entertainment depicting Hitler is absolutely 100% all right, just that there is a cultural barrier here that I do not fully understand. I'm certain that you understand it even less. And that's OK - you're offering your perspective, just as I'm trying to offer mine. I'm merely trying to suggest that you don't default to the assumption that the filmmakers were using film as a tool to hurt.
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Post by intonyeon on May 13, 2021 15:15:57 GMT -5
Is godzilla tasteless because it’s a movie about a atomic creature?
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Post by demoniclambertobava on May 13, 2021 15:31:35 GMT -5
. It's beyond me that people would find Killer Fish to be a fail, for example, since with that cast, that era and that premise I find it gold and I think MST did a solid job with it. But others differ. Some folks here really hate the shorter lengths of the Season 12 episodes and in particularly claim that the Killer Fish episode was ruined cause they had to cut too much of the film. I disagree but that is what I keep hearing. I don't think they were ruined by it, certainly not Killer Fish. But I do think the shortened length hurt the show and I think S12 in general feels constrained and boxed in by pressures from Netflix. There are several good episodes in there, but it was the first time I ever felt the show was really under the gun creatively and that made it hard for me to focus, because I spent a lot of that first watch very worried about the show's fate. I think Season 11 by comparison was mostly excellent and in full flow. I do think the riffing has sharpened up a bit or improved on pace and will probably continue to do so.
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Post by Diet Kolos on May 13, 2021 15:53:49 GMT -5
Forget tasteless, Invasion of the Neptune Men is a boring, messy slog that's just hard to watch. Regardless of taste and cultural sensitivity.
MANOS is tasteless. Hobgoblins is tasteless. Neptune Men is just misery for the senses.
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Post by dudehitscar on May 13, 2021 15:57:59 GMT -5
Is godzilla tasteless because it’s a movie about a atomic creature? no. got any more false equivalencies to throw at me?
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