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Post by kracker on Sept 27, 2021 23:01:47 GMT -5
it would have to. The per episode figure would have to take everything, total costs into consideration then probably round up a considerable amount to assure they stay in the black or subsidize things with merch.
They've been essentially raising money for season 14 since the Kickstarter ended. Nobody figured that instead of doing a Kickstarter, they do that "subscription drive" when summer comes around. KS backers can go ahead and sub for the next year in advance for a discounted rate and rewards, so there's no "they only resubscribe after the year is up", no, why would they make them wait if they are happy with the show and willing to go ahead and pay now to ensure further production? especially when its incentivized with rewards
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Post by BilLumberg on Sept 28, 2021 10:08:52 GMT -5
I hope that we don't have to watch ads in the gizmoplex, especially for episodes that we "own". That would be a deal breaker for me.
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Post by BoB3K on Sept 28, 2021 10:45:37 GMT -5
Is that really how you think it works? They make Season 14 while Season 13 is running, It is how it works. They put the numbers right in the kickstarter write-up. ALL the money they got from KS is going to making a season 13 and the gizmoplex to show it in. The rewards for those KS backers are to get that first year of gizmoplix and season 13. All the money is accounted for. All the big MST3K fans have already given their money. So, to start filming 14 to be ready for the end of 13, they will have to bring in multiple thousands of new subscribers and new MST3K fans, and do it early in that first season. Is that possible? Sure. But that is what will have to happen. If the fanbase doesn't grow, there will be no more money for Season 14 until they get more money out of their core fanbase. wedestroymyths has probably hit on the way they'll do it -- they'll take 'pre-orders' for the next season of gizmoplex memberships half-way through that first year.
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Post by BoB3K on Sept 28, 2021 10:47:38 GMT -5
I hope that we don't have to watch ads in the gizmoplex, especially for episodes that we "own". That would be a deal breaker for me. Who knows about live streams and such, but you would hope that if you just want to watch a released ep that's in your library, you can just pull it up like you would on NetFlix, et al.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Sept 28, 2021 17:41:32 GMT -5
I hope that we don't have to watch ads in the gizmoplex, especially for episodes that we "own". That would be a deal breaker for me.
About that...At the very least there's going to be ads that the Gizmoplex Founding Sponsors paid for with their $25,000 pledges. Per the Kickstarter: How about this? We'll produce a CUSTOM PROMOTIONAL VIDEO for your business*, featuring our host and bots, and shot on the Satellite of Love or in The Gizmoplex. Then, we'll feature your new promo video in a FULL YEAR OF GIZMOPLEX EVENTS, so that MST-loving consumers everywhere will know what you did to help their cause. Whether those ads will be inserted DURING an episode or at the beginning or end is not known. There's also been discussion about making fake/parody ads on the new forums, with Ivan seeming to say that there will be SOME type of ads, in an answer to a poster. The relevant discussion: Poster: So, we keep commercial sign, but instead of the usual ads, they show fake ads for previous invention exchanges and ideas from mid-show skits, like Chinderwear, Johnny Long Torso, Moon 14 Mezozoic Barbeque, Super Freakout, Mike’s BBQ sauce, etc… but interspersed in the ads will be things we as the fans can ACTUALLY BUY. I’m talking t-shirts and hoodies, knickknacks, anything that can be branded. Throw in adverts for Rifftrax and Shout Factory too! The Gizmoplex can get a small kickback from anyone who wants to put up an ad to help with operating costs going forward. I am no financial expert, but it seems to me that there’s an awful lot that could be used as potential advertising that could also help to cover operating costs going forward for the Gizmoplex, you know, in addition to our subscriber dollars! Ivan, feel free to share this idea with everyone back there, just let me get the credit for the idea if it hasn’t already been thought of!!!
Ivan Askwith: Don’t wanna spoil anything, but… let’s just say that we’re already pretty far in this direction. :wink:
I'm not sure if their plans for advertising include non-MST3K related ads, like how Totinos was integrated into the comic book series. Perhaps they could offer higher cost ad-free Gizmoplex subscriptions?
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Post by kracker on Sept 28, 2021 17:50:34 GMT -5
They put the numbers right in the kickstarter write-up. ALL the money they got from KS is going to making a season 13 and the gizmoplex to show it in. The rewards for those KS backers are to get that first year of gizmoplix and season 13. All the money is accounted for. All the big MST3K fans have already given their money. So, to start filming 14 to be ready for the end of 13, they will have to bring in multiple thousands of new subscribers and new MST3K fans, and do it early in that first season. Is that possible? Sure. But that is what will have to happen. If the fanbase doesn't grow, there will be no more money for Season 14 until they get more money out of their core fanbase. wedestroymyths has probably hit on the way they'll do it -- they'll take 'pre-orders' for the next season of gizmoplex memberships half-way through that first year. Yeah the KS backers aren't the entirety of the MST3K core fanbase, you are aware of that right? I know plenty of people who put in for the first KS but couldn't for the second, at least not right then. What about the 20,000 backers that werent able to put in for the second? I guess we kicked them out of the fan club for that? (inb4 how did you get 20k: 8,000 were new backers so only 28k returned). So within that pool of 20,000 fans you'll get your thousands of new subscribers, on top of the new backers that the KS proved they are able to draw, yea, don't worry those new people will be coming. :b This is kinda like how you thought that first couple of days of the KS was pretty much the fanbase and it wouldn't grow much at all. And Joel is a big dummy because he doesn't see he needs to more backers. So now you think that KS month is pretty much it as well, that's all the fans, every single one just happened to be able to put in, ignoring how they actually essentially have 18 months of fundraising and that 6.5 million was just from the first month. Also you are ignoring the fact that the KS ran a whole MILLION over the final stretch goal. So "All the money is accounted for", yea that's not the case at all. Every penny isnt going to making Season 13 like you claim. Take out the cost of that bonus holiday episode and they have a generous head start into funding that Season 14 you guys think is just a naive dream. As opposing to imagining that they don't have a single dollar over the money needed to produce season 13 and won't throughout the entirety of the season's run. Fact of the matter, there's so much you are not taking into account and so one way or another, season 13 wont be the end of things but one of those ways won't be another KS campaign, its the whole point of the Gizmoplex. By the time the Gizmoplex launches, they'll likely even already have enough to make half of a Season 14 not to mention at least a batch of episodes ready for those resubscribers, a far cry from your vision of them having to entertain everybody with reruns because they are broke somehow from somehow not getting in any revenue at all since the KS. I would say they wouldnt even need the sub drive, but it will happen anyway because they'd be dumb not to make the option of pre-sub available instead of waiting until the end of the year, that is if people are generally pleased with half-season they've seen so far the same way people were generally pleased with Season 11.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Sept 28, 2021 18:02:35 GMT -5
it would have to. The per episode figure would have to take everything, total costs into consideration then probably round up a considerable amount to assure they stay in the black or subsidize things with merch.
They've been essentially raising money for season 14 since the Kickstarter ended. Nobody figured that instead of doing a Kickstarter, they do that "subscription drive" when summer comes around. KS backers can go ahead and sub for the next year in advance for a discounted rate and rewards, so there's no "they only resubscribe after the year is up", no, why would they make them wait if they are happy with the show and willing to go ahead and pay now to ensure further production? especially when its incentivized with rewardsSubscription drive? I haven't seen anything about a subscription drive mentioned anywhere. Is this something that has been discussed by MST3K officially? It's not a bad idea. I'm not sure how the money they've raised since the Kickstarter ended through merchandise sales and add-on sales is being used, but I don't think it adds up to enough to fund pre-production on another season, yet.
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Post by kracker on Sept 28, 2021 18:11:25 GMT -5
We didn't say anything about it being mentioned anywhere. That's just something that they will likely do because if the Gizmoplex and Season 13 is a critical hit like Season 11 was, happy KS backers will be down to pre-sub to ensure uninterrupted production of more content plus reward incentives. I certainly would. And it doesnt make sense for them to wait until the end of the year to give people the option of resubbing. That's a lot of money right in the bank I mean, MST3K, you like money right? yea that's what i thought.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Sept 28, 2021 20:31:20 GMT -5
So you wrote posts about how they're getting the money for a Season 14 that hasn't even been mentioned yet through a subscription drive that is just a fan suggestion that will make thousands of KS backers re-up for long subscriptions because they love content that hasn't been made yet and bring in thousands of new subscribers from the 20,000* that couldn't donate to the KS.
Like I said, I admire your optimism.
*I still can't figure out where your 20,000 comes from. I think the number was that 47% of this Kickstarter's backers hadn't backed a Kickstarter before. (Per Joel, Update #22 6/16/21) There were 48,270 backers in 2015 and 36,581 this year. 47% of 36,581 is 17,193 leaving 19,388 backers who had backed a project (not specified as MST3K, any KS project) previously. If all of those 19,388 backers DID back the first MST3K Kickstarter, that's 28,882 backers from the first KS who didn't back the second. I don't think that nearly 30,000 people wanted to back this Kickstarter, but couldn't due to circumstance. I think it's more likely that the majority of those non-returning backers just didn't want to, for various reasons.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Sept 28, 2021 20:43:37 GMT -5
Is that really how you think it works? They make Season 14 while Season 13 is running, It is how it works. They put the numbers right in the kickstarter write-up. ALL the money they got from KS is going to making a season 13 and the gizmoplex to show it in. The rewards for those KS backers are to get that first year of gizmoplix and season 13. All the money is accounted for. All the big MST3K fans have already given their money. So, to start filming 14 to be ready for the end of 13, they will have to bring in multiple thousands of new subscribers and new MST3K fans, and do it early in that first season. Is that possible? Sure. But that is what will have to happen. If the fanbase doesn't grow, there will be no more money for Season 14 until they get more money out of their core fanbase. wedestroymyths has probably hit on the way they'll do it -- they'll take 'pre-orders' for the next season of gizmoplex memberships half-way through that first year.I suppose I'll be accused of being super negative and a hater but I'm going to say it anyway: Joel went over budget for both Season 11 and Season 12 and needed extra funds to "break even" (his words). For Season 11, they came from Netflix, and for Season 12 they came from the fans with that Pledge Drive in 2018. It's not unreasonable, given the track record, to expect Joel to dip into those post-Kickstarter proceeds again to deal with cost overruns, if they occur. That's a big if, but it's a possibility that can't be handwaved away as impossible.
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Post by kracker on Sept 28, 2021 21:32:49 GMT -5
So you're saying there's no way they would allow fans to pre-sub the next season, i mean, why? because they are just plain stupid? Once again, didnt say they are defintely doing that, saying that's what they will likely do, and if people like the content. Stop twisting my words. Yes, its an educated assumption. How is your assumption that this will go bust, without being privy to any internal numbers or facts to back that up, somehow carry so much more weight?
You're asking where money would come from, and there's your answer. and only part of it really. I didnt even mention the tour and the money THAT brings in. probably the reason why they are doing it. Big part of the producers' job over the next year is to ensure there will be enough funds to continue the business. Unfortunately, you're not willing to accept an answer other than they have no way to fund the next season and this is destined to fail because they are dumb, so just dumb. Yes, from a perspective of deep pessimism, sensible reasonability does look like admirable optimism.
sorry its 8,000 that were new to KS. And 47% that are new to the MST3K KS according to Joel. So that now makes a potential pool of 32,000 where the thousands of new subscribers you require can come from, on top of potentially thousands of newcomers.
Well, the fact that they experienced cost overruns somehow, you dont know how, yet the cost per episode not only remained the same but added shorts tells us that they weren't likely due to actual episode production costs or would not be an issue with the new streaming model. Otherwise, they would have adjusted the budget accordingly like any competent producers would do (that's their job)
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Post by BoB3K on Sept 29, 2021 15:05:44 GMT -5
I suppose I'll be accused of being super negative and a hater but I'm going to say it anyway: Joel went over budget for both Season 11 and Season 12 and needed extra funds to "break even" (his words). For Season 11, they came from Netflix, and for Season 12 they came from the fans with that Pledge Drive in 2018. It's not unreasonable, given the track record, to expect Joel to dip into those post-Kickstarter proceeds again to deal with cost overruns, if they occur. That's a big if, but it's a possibility that can't be handwaved away as impossible. Not only is that not super negative it's a very good point, and the next round of pledge drives and subscription re-ups and advertising could well be needed to finish producing the back end of season 13... And it won't be a super negative opinion until Joel finally comes through and produces a promised product on time and on budget. Season 13 could be the start of this, or maybe not, we'll all just have to wait and see.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Sept 29, 2021 21:42:25 GMT -5
So you're saying there's no way they would allow fans to pre-sub the next season, i mean, why? because they are just plain stupid?
I am NOT saying that. In fact, I think a subscription drive would be a good idea. I said so in a comment above. Once again, didnt say they are defintely doing that, saying that's what they will likely do, and if people like the content. Stop twisting my words. Yes, its an educated assumption. How is your assumption that this will go bust, without being privy to any internal numbers or facts to back that up, somehow carry so much more weight?I did NOT say "The Gizmoplex will go bust/fail/flop." I did NOT twist your words. You posted as if a subscription drive was a thing that was guaranteed to happen, and I asked you if I had missed something announced by MST3K. Where we differ is our beliefs on how many new, non-backer subscribers might sign up during such a drive, or how many new, non-backer subscribers would be interested in subscribing to the Gizmoplex, period. As far as the Gizmoplex failing completely, no, I don't think it will. What I do think is that it will not bring in ENOUGH money, the money that will be needed to produce new episodes of MST3K after the Season 13 episodes have been competed. I think it is likely that at some point in the future, Joel will again fundraise by asking the fans to donate. It's been overwhelmingly successful when he promises new episodes in exchange for money; why stop doing it? You're asking where money would come from, and there's your answer. and only part of it really. I didnt even mention the tour and the money THAT brings in. probably the reason why they are doing it. Big part of the producers' job over the next year is to ensure there will be enough funds to continue the business. Unfortunately, you're not willing to accept an answer other than they have no way to fund the next season and this is destined to fail because they are dumb, so just dumb. Yes, from a perspective of deep pessimism, sensible reasonability does look like admirable optimism.We don't know what happens to the tour proceeds. We don't know if the tours make money, break even, or lose money. We do know that each tour (except the first two that were products of a single corporate entity) has its own LLC corporation created for it, as I found doing a corporate search for Alternaversal and MST3K. Creating separate corporations allows debt to be isolated and not carried over to new corporate creations, if that occurs. Assets can be transferred between LLCs as well, if I remember my commercial law correctly. Yes, I am pessimistic about the chance of the Gizmoplex being totally self-sustaining to the point where subscriptions to it will provide enough money for a Season 14 DURING THE 13 MONTHS SEASON 13 IS AIRING. That's what you were talking about: how the money to make Season 14 is going to come in while Season 13 is airing on the Gizmoplex, to the point that Alternaversal and Joel will start work on Season 14 while Season 13 is airing, assumedly in 2022. sorry its 8,000 that were new to KS. And 47% that are new to the MST3K KS according to Joel. So that now makes a potential pool of 32,000 where the thousands of new subscribers you require can come from, on top of potentially thousands of newcomers.I'm sorry, I still don't understand where you are getting your numbers from. A 32,000 pool of potential subscribers comes from where? 8000 from what added to 24,000 from what? I gave you exact figures in my run down. Well, the fact that they experienced cost overruns somehow, you dont know how, yet the cost per episode not only remained the same but added shorts tells us that they weren't likely due to actual episode production costs or would not be an issue with the new streaming model. Otherwise, they would have adjusted the budget accordingly like any competent producers would do (that's their job)Quote from the 2021 Kickstarter first post: During our first Kickstarter, we estimated that, once production was up and running, we'd be able to produce new episodes for about $250K each. In the end, though, the budget for each new episode ended up being closer to $350K. For the last two seasons, we were able to cover the difference through our deal with Netflix... but this time, we're on our own. We've got a lot of ways we can keep the budget lower, but, you know... it's still going to cost something. And when you think about it, $350K for 90 minutes of television is still one of the best deals in show business. [Joel forgot to mention the Season 12 Pledge Drive.] Joel went on to estimate that each Season 13 episode will cost an average of $298,000 if they got 12 episodes, due to cost savings*. But we don't know how much these episodes are going to actually cost, because maybe the movie rights got more expensive. Maybe there's unforeseen expenses due to COVID protocols, labor shortages, material cost inflation, etc. There's a lot of things that can drive up costs, some within control, some not. And no, we don't know WHY the episodes from the Netflix seasons ended up being 30% more expensive than what was budgeted, but they did. Joel also says that remote production is much cheaper than having a big crew, big soundstage, everyone in one place, etc. as they were for the Netflix seasons, yet he's still asking for a Netflix-era amount. Which is smart, IMO, because these Season 13 episodes are likely to cost more than 300K each. I've already made this too long, but I wanted to be clear. You misrepresented my words. We are never going to agree about most of this, but my beliefs on the future of MST3K and the Gizmoplex aren't based on wild speculation and hatred, they're based on my analysis of information that is public and out there for anyone to see with a little research, and looking at previous new MST results to make informed guesses. I believe that 1) MST3K isn't going to disappear as long as there are fans willing to continue to fund Joel in one way or another for as long as he wants to continue making it, and 2) the Gizmoplex isn't going to fail outright, but it may never be all that was promised. *Cost savings work for tangible assets such as props, sets, equipment, etc. that can be used for multiple episodes, but not for salaries, rental costs, utilities and things of that nature where the more you use, the more you pay. You will pay writers more to write 13 episodes than 3, actors more to perform in more episodes, more to rent a soundstage for two weeks than for one, and so on.
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Post by kracker on Sept 29, 2021 22:57:40 GMT -5
how does " likely to happen" translate to "guaranteed to happen" and how does " if they like the content" translate to "they love content that hasn't been made yet"? you very much did twist my words. none of this "talking as if", no, that's what i said "Im sorry, I still don't understand where you are getting your numbers from"ugh, lemme simplify the numbers: about half of 32,000 (2nd KS backers) are new backers " we found out that about 47% of you weren’t backers during our first Kickstarter" so the other half, that's 16,000 backers from the first KS of 48,000 backers returning for the second KS. 48,000 - 16,000 = 32,000. you follow? you have a big pool of people who maybe weren't sold on the Gizmoplex pitch or couldnt pledge at the time, who could be willing to put in now that its a reality. And i bring this up to point out how you guys are pretty much saying that those 16,000 repeat backers, only those to participated in the KS, are somehow the entirety of the MST3K core fanbase. You're misreading words again, the 47% arent those who've never backed a KS before. those are backers who didnt back the first one. The number of backers who had never backed a KS before is 8,000 or 25% and that 25% would be part of that 47% since they "weren’t backers during our first Kickstarter"
And What are you talking about They have enough money to make new episodes already. Between the extra MILLION the KS ran over, (minus cost of the holiday episode), the money from the tour (which profits can benefit the other production because writers, staff and cast work on both) and all the months of post-KS fundraising, they have some money to make new episodes after Season 13 is completed. You are speculating that all that money just goes up in smoke somehow and the Gizmoplex will just make no money (just like the KS wasnt supposed to make money either) so they wont even be able to make the first batch of episodes to kick off 2023. Which is all they really need, they don't need to make the entirety of season 14 while season 13 running that's rather unnecessary when it comes to the Gizmoplex sustaining itself.
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Post by BoB3K on Sept 29, 2021 23:36:38 GMT -5
I would say that kracker is on the current MST3K staff, the way he is so utterly protective of them, but then if he was, he would actually know that they're spending all the money and there will inevitably be requests for more money whenever it's time to start talking about season 14.
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