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Post by demoniclambertobava on Mar 6, 2022 1:38:17 GMT -5
I will say that I work in entertainment and while I'm absolutely no expert, I've seen that kind of maneuvering where a company denies the use of assets before just for shitty offhand or byzantine reasons. It's unfortunately typical. Whether they, an independent outfit, could duke it out with Netflix over it and ultimately win after a long, drawn-out struggle doesn't mean it would be worth getting bogged down in the fight here and now. I've seen people have to throw up their hands and walk away before.
I miss those sets terribly. But I've heard my share of stories about various outlets' shitty bureaucratic snafus long before MST.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Mar 6, 2022 1:54:09 GMT -5
Well, I guess the answer is to just build new sets and film new intros/doorway sequences. Preferably before they start Season 14.
I guess it could explain why the sets/intro/doorway look so terrible. They went in thinking they could reuse the sets/assets they had, Netflix told them no and they didn't have enough time/resources to redesign, build and house everything in the timeframe they already laid out.
At least I hope that's the case. Because if that's what they WANTED things to look like...
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Post by demoniclambertobava on Mar 6, 2022 1:58:53 GMT -5
Oh God, please yes. Though I do think/hope the greenscreen work will be cleaned up more by May. It already looks a bit better in the 1080p version of last night's stream, though the Mads footage is still rough.
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Post by BoB3K on Mar 6, 2022 3:10:41 GMT -5
...weren't mst3k season 1 sets made overnight by trace and joel with little money...
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Post by demoniclambertobava on Mar 6, 2022 3:15:13 GMT -5
I don't think that means it really has to be done under those same constraints 30+ years later.
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Post by kracker on Mar 6, 2022 6:01:39 GMT -5
huh well it doesnt make much sense because they produced the episodes themselves, paid for with backer money. And Joel wouldn't let them own any part of the show, avoiding the obvious mistakes of the past. How does Netflix have the rights to their own IP assets? Maybe they somehow had lock and key over the physical assets themselves? Sets, miniatures, props and what not? And Tim isn't talking about the footage itself? That's what he meant?
Also is this the first time we've seen someone actually talk this badly about Netflix, to the extent of calling themselves jerks and dumb? Joel stops short of saying anything like that cos he's gotta play nice with his former employer.
Second, they can't reuse the intro anyway, because the intro has to be all about the Gizmoplex and the story changes with Emily and what not. Also they can't feature Har Mar Superstar anymore. In fact, its more believable that Har Mar Superstar would be the showstopper because they have to pay them royalties every time they use the intro.
Maybe since he says its above his paygrade, he actually doesn't know what he talking about, because it doesnt make sense. And it doesn't answer the question, why they couldn't make a new intro like the last one. He can say that, hey things are actually still under construction, which this episode certainly feels like, since no credits, stinger, or even the bumpers yet, its rather barebones right now.
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Post by demoniclambertobava on Mar 6, 2022 6:11:32 GMT -5
The intro doesn't 'have' to be all about the Gizmoplex or Emily. It works with the rewrite because the new song lyrics do not emphasize a specific host, but if they had reused the Netflix intro the show wouldn't necessarily miss a beat for most fans. They could've cut the intro down or cut to the guitar riff and moon intro on Emily episodes - who knows. The Har Mar Superstar issue is separate.
I really don't think any member of the staff would go online and diss Netflix if he had no idea what he's talking about. I do know for a fact that companies play bureaucratic tit for tat over those assets all the time due to byzantine copyright law or various usage loopholes, and we also don't know the details of their contract with Netflix, perhaps the biggest streaming outlet in the world today, which had to favor the streamer.
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Post by demoniclambertobava on Mar 6, 2022 6:14:37 GMT -5
Maybe since he says its above his paygrade, he actually doesn't know what he talking about, because it doesnt make sense. And it doesn't answer the question, why they couldn't make a new intro like the last one. He can say that, hey things are actually still under construction, which this episode certainly feels like, which no credits, stinger, or even the bumpers, its rather barebones. The credits and stinger are being finished in post for the final version of 1301, they already told us that. The bumpers I assume they did away with because there's no more Boneheads for the foreseeable future given COVID, and they're not going to assemble a sizable crew onscreen to film an intro in the middle of a pandemic for the same reason (also, people complained about the bumpers existing on Netflix despite the lack of commercial breaks even though I found them charming but whatever, so I personally would not be shocked to never see the band again). That's all separate issues.
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Post by kracker on Mar 6, 2022 6:25:00 GMT -5
Sounds like Tim doesn't even know the details of their contract. But copyright law doesnt work that way and I dont see how they would let that happen and sign off their assets. When they moved to Sci-fi Channel, Comedy Central didn't step in and say 'hey you cant use your iconic doorway sequence you made yourselves'. Also still doesn't answer the question, why cant they make a new intro. The old intro would have definitely clashed with the new show. i mean, what were they using the miniatures for in the bts photos if not to shoot a new intro. Was paying for the release of their assets an option since it would save them that money? questions, questions, questions.
And you're missing the point, they don't need boneheads, Har Mar Superstar or any of that crap, just make new bumpers along with a new intro, they dont need a huge freakin crew and band for that. If they cant make a new intro on a set because they are limited to a single static camera shot because of how Covid restrictions worked out, then just say that, completely understandable. And it doesnt stop them from making a new one this year now that this pandemic is endinig and replacing it.
I certainly love the bumpers on the Netflix show for the reason Joel put them there. They have breaks in this episode anyway and now its awkward without them, replaced with these bits with Joel, and guess what... we have commercials now in the show, but no bumpers, so its even more awkward.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Mar 6, 2022 8:41:44 GMT -5
So what does this mean for Growler? M Waverly? The Boneheads? The new SOL? Artie and Kingachrome? Is ALL the stuff that people paid them to design and build for Season 11 off limits from now on?
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Post by kracker on Mar 6, 2022 8:58:02 GMT -5
As a backer of the first KS, i'd be pissed if all those new bots we paid for just wound up as the private intellectual property of Netflix and got imprisoned in their vault forever for no actual good reason whatsoever. #FreeGrowler #FreeWaverly #NoBotLeftBehind
Live show people: Did they use the door sequence and if so, how were they allowed to do that?
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Post by dudehitscar on Mar 6, 2022 11:01:47 GMT -5
...weren't mst3k season 1 sets made overnight by trace and joel with little money... oh please no.. ANYTHING is better than Season 1's look.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Mar 6, 2022 11:20:28 GMT -5
Season 0, KTMA, those sets were made overnight for almost no money. And was basically a wall with a door (mostly just a door) and a desk. The Mads used an existing station control room.
The one thing KTMA has that clearly outclasses Season 13 is the doorway sequence. Even with no budget their doors look miles better than that 2005 Flash animation mess is.
Now, Season 1's sets were most definitely not made overnight, but it was quick. They moved into the Eden Prairie studio in late July/early August 89 and had to start filming quickly to get on-air by September. So they probably spent about a month on construction. The Mads set was basic and probably an afterthought. There was the control panel, some foam walls and metal air ducts.
The main work was the bridge set, which was the same big dome set used for all 10 seasons. They built the bones of it and the floor/desk but ran out of time to collage the walls. There's some behind the scenes footage in the Scrapbook tape. Plus they had to build and shoot a doorway sequence.
It was a big project and certainly wasn't done overnight.
The main thing the show needs it seems, going forward to Season 14, is a physical, long-term studio space. Even if it has to be kitbashed out of existing office/warehouse space. Cause I think we can all agree by now that green screen sets are not the answer. And its obvious that renting studio existing professional space is prohibitively expensive.
I think it'll depend on if they keep their West Coast talent or consolidate to the cheaper and easier to schedule Emily crew at the end of the Season like I think some of us have been assuming for awhile.
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Post by majorjoe23 on Mar 6, 2022 11:32:21 GMT -5
...weren't mst3k season 1 sets made overnight by trace and joel with little money... The big difference is at KTMA they had a place for the sets to live, rent free. Unless they get their own space to film, instead of renting out a studio, sets cost them money even when not in use. So they could try to find a spot, but then the issue becomes do they do it on the east coast or west coast? If they choose East, they have to pay for travel and lodging for the Netflix era crew while filming. If they choose west, they have to do the same for the live show crew.
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Post by Megalon on Mar 6, 2022 11:39:07 GMT -5
that 2005 Flash animation mess Is this hyperbole or is the new door sequence really animated? I keep thinking, "It can't be as bad as people are making out," but then I read something like this... As for the Netflix contract -- I imagine the exact legality is ambiguous, so Joel et al. decided to to ask for permission now rather than forgiveness later. If they were asking a fellow creative, the answer probably would have been, "Of course. You made it. It's yours. Good luck!" But they were dealing with a giant, heartless corporation, whose M.O. is to automatically lay claim to everything within reach and squash any competing claims. It's unfortunate, because I'm pretty sure they do have the legal right to use the door sequence, but now they're in iffy legal territory, because they've received a definite "no," so using the door sequence now would land them in hot water. They obviously can't afford a legal battle, and it's possible that they can't even afford legal counsel, which might be why they decided to ask in the first place.
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