wish i could unhear it...

[catbasketry]

Started watching MST from the beginning (KTMA) recently because i was feeling really depressed. And... I know this has been talked about before, but i need to talk it through and get it off my chest.

Million Eyes of Sumuru has racist riffs. "Slanted eyes" and "nip" references.
Rocketship XM has a brief "rocket ready to raunch" voice.
Lots of Godzilla, Gamera, and Master Ninja films have fake "karate" noises (not talking about hikeeba).
Catalina Caper has a good joke about the times saying that they'd make Little Richard use the back door. But then while L.R. is singing Trace says "o-tay!" I believe.
There's the "Japanese in Paris" bit in Mighty Jack.

Oddly enough there's the anti-yellowface bit in Fu Manchu, however.

I wish i hadn't watched Sumuru. Since that, i can't help noticing the other riffs. And they didn't seem to catch in my mind or bother me for practically 20 years (has it been 20 years? Amazing!) But i guess being depressed put me in a particularly sensitive mindset. I'm sorry. I just needed to talk out how if has been bothering me. I just hate to see any negative in my comedy heroes. I'm sure it has more to do with midwest isolation and the times than malice. More to do with how far we've come in 20 years as a country.

[brandonakaxerxes]

While I don't think any kind of ethnic jokes are right, I generally am somewhat amused by the occasional "R/L" joke that creeps up in comedy, because it is something that happens constantly in real life.

I work in a deli, and it's amusing (and frustrating) when an Asian person asks what you have in the peppers, and I say "rice", and they think I mean "lice", and throw a fit at how disgusting and inhumane that is.

That said... the "slant eyes" and "nip" jokes.... that's kind of pushing it, when you start making fun of a race based on their looks.

On an additional note, one Japanese-related joke that's always kinda made me cringe is one moment during Invasion of the Neptune Men, showing a group of people dancing in a goofy manner, Crow asks, "Do the Japanese think WE act like this?" I always think to myself, "Um.... yeah we kinda do."

I also felt Crow demanding japan not to make any more movies was kind of harsh. I mean really, you may as well demand AMERICA stop making movies.

[Mike Flugennock]

I'm certainly not going to make excuses for racist jokes, but, still... remember, this is in the context of a satirical TV show which, as I recall, made more than a few jokes about "whitebread" America... like that school dance scene in Mr. B Natural, where Servo sings along with the band: "We're white, we're white, we're really really white, we're really really really really white...!" ...and the sentencing scene at the end of I Accuse My Parents, where Jimmy draws a remarkably light sentence, and Joel says "Thank God I'm white!" ...then, there's that scene at the beginning of Century 21 Calling, where there's a close-up of that insufferably perky squeaky-clean boy and girl, and Servo says "Aren't you glad there's only white people here?" And, let's not forget the relentless riffing on Europeans, especially re: deodorant use, in Danger: Death Ray; even as I was thinking "hey, you guys, lighten up on Europe!", I was laughing my ass off. Oh, and don't even get me started on how they totally savaged Canadians in The Final Sacrifice. So, they were pretty much into equal-opportunity taunting -- and were actually pretty tame compared to SNL, especially the first five seasons of SNL.

I can agree that Crow's suggestion box gag at the end of Invasion Of The Neptune Men used a bit of a broad brush as it didn't make an exception for, say, Kurosawa, but, then, it would've ruined the gag -- though, just between you and me, every time I see Japan coming out with something like virtual pets, whale popsicles or lifelike robotic sex dolls, it just wants to make me scream PLEASE, JAPAN, STOP IT ALREADY!

It's also worth noting, in the case of Neptune Men, Kevin Murphy's remarks in the SciFi Channel Episode Guide concerning the use of aerial bombing stock footage in the climactic battle scenes:

Suffice it to say that the reprehensible nature of Invasion of the Neptune Men is embodied in the filmmaker's choice to use actual WWII file footage in what is ostensibly a children's film. To glibly summon the darkest shadows of our century because one has run out of models to blow up is to stoop to Schumacherian levels of banality. Though we as a rule cut only for time, we also cut for violent content, and we very clearly considered aerial bombardment footage of Japan to be of a violent nature.

Sadly, though, like most filmmakers around the world, Japan is better known to the masses for its crap -- like cheesy monster flicks and ultra-violent anime porn -- than for Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. Even the USA, these days, is better known for ultra-violent action flicks, superhero franchise movies and banal romantic comedies than for Treasure Of Sierra Madre or A Night At The Opera.

.

Now, my own self -- while it's not as serious as jokes of a possibly offensive racist nature, there's one riff I wish I could un-hear: during one of the beach party scenes in Horror Of Party Beach, the Del-Aires sing "Everybody do it, do it, do it!" to which Servo sings back, "...pick your nose and chew it, chew it, chew it!" Even while I was laughing until I hurt, I couldn't help thinking "oh, jeezus, Servo, thanks so much for sharing!"

[catbasketry]

Oh to be sure there's loads of whitebread jokes. It's more the occasional racial stereotype joke that gets me. And that stuff from Sumuru... Hooboy.

Like i said, i think it's the product of being suburban white guys of a certain age, and the show being two whole decades old. Heck, only like six years before MST there was Long Duck Dong in Sixteen Candles. And i believe the same actor , Gedde Watanabe, doing the Supplies gag in UHF.

[GarrettCRW]

The thing is, it was OK to make these sorts of Asian jokes well into the '90s. "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips" wasn't even officially pulled from distribution until Turner released all of the pre-'48 cartoons they owned (save for the Censored Eleven) on laserdisc and VHS. The set with that short was released on December 11, 1991-three days before The Unearthly premiered. So, the protests probably hit sometime in 1992.

[crowschmo]

I think sometimes they are actually making fun of the stereotypes themselves, but that always seems like an excuse to just continue to say the racist jokes, like hey, weren't we stupid to think like this at one time, but let's just keep doing it 'cause it can be funny, but we don't really think like this FOR REAL, or something to that effect.

Me, I don't like when jokes target a person for their appearance, or just a specific person in general. I don't mind when people are made fun of for something jerky that they actually said or did.

[Mike Flugennock]

Jan 15, 2013 15:36:14 GMT -5 crowschmo said:

I think sometimes they are actually making fun of the stereotypes themselves, but that always seems like an excuse to just continue to say the racist jokes, like hey, weren't we stupid to think like this at one time, but let's just keep doing it 'cause it can be funny, but we don't really think like this FOR REAL, or something to that effect...

Yeah, I guess that's pretty much it. Many of the movies lampooned on MST3K contained instances of racism, sexism, or hyper-nationalism far worse than any riff the SOL Crew could throw back at them. Let's also remember that in the course of riffing over those movies, the Crew were slathering on a heavy layer of sarcasm and irony; in many cases, the riffs they were throwing down were a form of reading between the lines, like little "strange interlude" moments where the true attitudes and feelings of the filmmakers and characters were revealed. Right offhand, the short Young Man's Fancy is a prime example; packed full of stilted '50s attitudes toward sexuality and gender roles, Young Man's Fancy was an irresistably juicy target for some heavy-duty ironic riffing.

[catbasketry]

Lots of the "really white kids" stuff is out there, yes, and it's totally fair and a good parody of the times. As are other jokes about 50s gender and racial issues. There's just others that seem less ironic or critical of older attitudes are more just, well, there. Making fun of Japanese speech or names, for example. Or that tiny bit in Catalina Caper that always bugs me. I can't be sure Crow is saying "otay" but if they were actually using a Buckwheat phrase while a black guy was on screen, that's just kinda... Awkward. But i think i remember them (Trace again if i recall) using it in other cases sort of like how Crow sometimes greets Joel as "hey, stud!"

It's really just that i need to get over the things bothering me, i guess.

[jimmydoorlocks]

That stuff bugs me too. I feel like one of the few black misties out there and some things like the asian "jokes" I just can't handle. I avoid watching the gamera movies or any of the ktma episodes because of it. I remember one episode where Joel called the bots "yard monkeys" and my jaw dropped.

No, you don't need to get over it. The racism really is an annoying and upsetting thing to see/hear. But i don't watch those episodes at all anymore.

I also HATED how they handled the male rape scene in the violent years. Hated it. I don't watch that episode anymore either. Attitudes like that are why a lot of men are too ashamed to come forward about their sexual assault. Made me so uncomfortable.

[catbasketry]

I've heard thatt used by midwesterners meaning rambunctious kids... I know the first time i came across it was in that use in aa Bloom County strip. But i can totally see how it sounds waaaay too close to a certain ethnic slur.

Thank you. I'm glad it's not just me.

[catbasketry]

I gave up on my big watch-a-thon and found something else to watch. I will have to stay away from the MST until i can handle the ugly riffs.

[jimmydoorlocks]

They definitely cooled it with the stupid racist crap, at least.

You don't have to watch the show in order at all.I'd skip ktma anyway, there's nothing of value in there unless youre an obsessive mstie who has to watch them all. It'd be a shame if you missed out on such a funny show but I understand your hesitation.

They got a lot better about this stuff, promise. If you want to chat with me about this stuff, message me.

[catbasketry]

Yeah, i'm obsessive, which is why i own the entire run of the show. I've seen seasons 2 to maybe 8 dozens of times each. And the suddenly the racist jokes suddenly leapt out at me more and more after watching KTMA episodes of out a desire to watch stuff i didn't have memorized. It knocked the wind out of me. One day i'll be able to watch them again. Heck, maybe one day i'll get desperate enough to watch Cinematic Titanic (i own one, i thought it sucked). Til then, hey, i'll watch Home Movies or Dr. Katz.

[mrsphyllistorgo]

Yeah, dealing with racism within a movie is different from using racist terminology.

When they pointed out that a black man being chased up a tree (albeit by killer shrews) was "wrong on so many levels", they were using humor to call out something offensive within the movie, for two reasons; one, to point it out using said humor, and two, to underline that they, themselves, did not find the scene acceptable.

But "slant eyes" and "nips" towards a Japanese film? Not cool. That's just being racist, and irony is not some magical cure-all that renders the remarks harmless and cute.

I'm glad and sad this was pointed out. Glad because I don't want to be blind towards something even if I love it, and sad because I do love it and expected better of them.

[jimmydoorlocks]

Yeah, for some reason, it seemed to be the most acceptable to make fun of Asians out of all the other minorities on the show (and in real life. I'm 23 and I still remember the stupid playground rhyme about pissing in someone's coke?). I seem to remember an early invention exchange where Dr. F was wearing "slanted eyes" glasses and speaking pretty terribly, while Erhardt ran a Godzilla that spat actual fire. Jesus Christ, guys.

At least the Brains tried to redeem themselves during that horrible scene in batwoman, that seance scene where they're all just gobsmacked and can do nothing but sputter in disbelief, but I'm not a fan of some riffs and remarks in prince of space, or neptune men (even though the latter was truly garbage and used old ww2 film footage, according to Kevin?!)

It's probably safe to say that I avoid all of the episodes involving Asian films because I just do not want to have to deal with it. The older I get, the more ashamed I am of these episodes. Comedy is quite a flimsy excuse for hurting people based on their nationalities.

Part of liking a show is realizing all its faults and being able to talk about them seriously without being defensive because it's usually a good show.

Being black, I appreciate all the riffs on white people and how incredibly racist the times were (still are, to be honest, but I'd rather not delve into that too deeply), like the aforementioned scene where they said to Little Richard "Haha, you were great! Now leave. Out the back door.", or:

"Come on and buy some crap from us
You know that you want to
And the white race will salute you
As you prance and gad about!"

And of course, all the "white male reality" quips.

The entire history of mst3k is peppered with riffs like this, which are hilarious, but I wonder sometimes, what the show would be like had more minorities been working on it. I do not accept the notion of "white guilt", by the way.