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Post by denofearth on Feb 16, 2013 0:40:37 GMT -5
Any other fans of this outstanding graphic novel? for me i've been a fan of the comics since it had it's 12 issue ran when i was 5 years old as it was the first mature readers comic i've ever read and it took my imagination on new levels then later when i was 14 i bought the graphic novel trade paperback and has been my fave graphic novel since.
Alan Moore is a true genius in the comic medium and changed the way of comics with his masterpiece just like Frank Miller did with Batman.
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Post by Shep on Mar 3, 2013 6:44:52 GMT -5
Any other fans of this outstanding graphic novel? for me i've been a fan of the comics since it had it's 12 issue ran when i was 5 years old as it was the first mature readers comic i've ever read and it took my imagination on new levels then later when i was 14 i bought the graphic novel trade paperback and has been my fave graphic novel since. Alan Moore is a true genius in the comic medium and changed the way of comics with his masterpiece just like Frank Miller did with Batman. Absolutely agree! "Watchmen" and "Dark Knight Returns" blew me away when I read them. A huge leap forward for comics.
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Post by angilasman on Mar 3, 2013 20:07:04 GMT -5
I really like Watchmen, but I gotta say that I prefer the happier, more kid-friendly world of silver and golden age superheroes: Lee/Kirby/Ditko Marvel stuff, Dick Sprang's Batman, ect.
Not that I'm some sort of prude. I love all kinds of comics, including things like Love and Rockets (for example), with it's frank depiction of sexuality or Maus dealing with WWII - but to me the strongest superheroes and the fun, colorful, family-friendly ones.
What I'm saying is, I like Watchmen, but not the trend it helped solidify. I actually love Moore's Swamp Thing more (oh, and I like horror comics, too. Swampy is more horror than superhero).
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Post by Mighty Jack on Mar 3, 2013 23:08:49 GMT -5
^I'm not saying your wrong, and I hear that a lot from people these days -- but I realized something recently. I like grim and gritty, I like angst and darkness. I like anti-heroes. I try to read the lighter stuff people recommend and it often leaves me cold.
Now that doesn't mean I want an overload of whining, nor am I bloodthristy, but I like what Watchmen wrought... as long as the talent is behind it. A lot of the imitators went dark, but forgot -or lacked the talent- to deliver the subtext that Moore puts in his stories. So if there's weight behind it, yeah, I like some bite in my costumed crime fighters.
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Post by angilasman on Mar 4, 2013 1:19:27 GMT -5
^We're mortal enemies! Seriously though, it's all just preference. I'm in my early '20s, so it's not like I'm nostalgic for an era in my childhood. My favorite movie is The Adventures of Robin Hood with Errol Flynn, which probably says all you need to know about my tastes.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Mar 4, 2013 13:28:37 GMT -5
You were born too late? That's cool, there's some great material in our past. And I too prefer Swamp Thing. But I like to think that Moore did more than bring darkness, as I see it he raised the bar for writing the capes. Guys with little to no talent could do no more than give us empty, violent suits, so yeah, that's a negative imitation. But then you also have people like Gillen or Hickman, who deliver complex plots and characterizations... pushed the supers into the realm of real literature if you will, added a level of maturity to the genre. I think guys like them (and others top writers) owe a lot to Moore. So I think it balances out. Watchmen inspired both good and bad.
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Post by angilasman on Mar 4, 2013 18:20:32 GMT -5
In terms of sophistication with the capes, that's possible ... though I think, heights of sophistication be damned, that the Lee/Ditko/Kirby comics from the '60s are the creme of the crop with superhero comics because of that great combination of melodrama, energy, and total-flippin'-insanity.
If you expand 'capes' to include all costumed heroes then I think Eisner's Spirit, at it's best, may still be tops sophistication wise, but while the sophistication of and incredibly dense novel (like Watcmen) is obvious, the sophistication of perfectly crafted but very brief short stories (The Spirit was only 7 page shorts) is more easily overlooked.
I wouldn't mind if it didn't become the standard. An all-ages, well written and drawn, fun superhero book that is, you know, good (and not some little-to-no-effort contractually obligated animation tie-in or the like) is quite hard to come by these days.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Mar 5, 2013 0:43:57 GMT -5
I liked the 60s, I lived in the 60s and I loved those old comics, but today, even I have to admit that they are a little corny. I don't really want to go back to that personally. Fun is great, I like fun. But I'm sorry, I'm in my 50s now and my tastes have changed, become more sophisticated. What Jonathan Hickman is doing in the New Avengers is an example of what appeals to me most these days in regards to Superheroes. It's nothing short of genius. And I have to agree with the great Gil Kane, who felt that Moore upped the ante in regards to skilled writting, even beyond what Einser did. As far as all ages comics, as Peter David pointed out, people say they want them, but then they don't sell when their published. I'd love to see more diversity in comics. All ages, all styles, all kinds of storylines. But the reality is that the market isn't supporting them. Still, they are out there if you look for them. One of the lighter super hero comics I'm reading (i'm not a complete cynic) is "It Girl and the Atomics", it's bright and fun, not too cheesy. It was Multiversity's Friday recommendation a while back... multiversitycomics.com/columns/friday-recommendation-it-girl-the-atomics/Even better is Lady Sifs adventures in "Journey Into Mystery". This book has been a blast (though yes, a violent blast, so not all ages exactly, though it does capture that old style spirit). It's thrilling, funny as heck and imaginative... www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=5738Despite the glowing reviews, neither book is selling well.
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Post by angilasman on Mar 5, 2013 8:58:10 GMT -5
^All-ages comics do sell... when they're actually good... and when they're actually where kids can, you know, get them (i.e. not ghettoized in comics shops where the only way they're gonna get 'em is if they have a comics-loving adult to put them in their hands).
The Diary of a Wimpy Kid comics and an enormous seller with kids. Jeff Smith's Bone is a huge seller with kids. Hell, I was surprised when I found out how many kids are reading Archie! My nephews came over for Christmas and bought a few of their own presents at a bookstore: comics! Non-superhero, available at the kids section of the bookstore comics!
Funnily, that's a Madman spin-off, and I'm actually just starting Madman! I'll get to this when I reach it chronologically! (so, err... last, I suppose, since it's the most recent)
I wasn't always this way, but as I've aged from teen to adult I've found myself more attracted to lighthearted fare, finding the complexity in simplicity sometimes (like the marvelous timing in a Chuck Jones cartoon, or the brilliant characterization and witty observations on human nature in a L. Frank Baum Oz book). Mind you, I still watch and read stuff for grown-ups, too! I own a lot of Criterions, honest!
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Post by Mighty Jack on Mar 5, 2013 15:16:09 GMT -5
My tastes shift, right now I find myself gravitating towards a little more of the scary stuff. My favorite things from DC of late (aside from Wonder Woman) has been their Dark titles (course it doesn't help when they keep cancelling my favorites. I just lost Frankenstein and soon I, Vampire and Sword of Sorcery will be gone) and have been drawn to what Image has been putting out: Manhattan Projects, Fatale, Revival.
And you got me on Wimpy Kid, I wasn't familiar with that one (course my eye wouldn't go there) and I don't even recall seeing it on Diamonds sales charts?
And I didn't know Bone was still being published. I had a pal who loved that comic, was always making me read it. I thought it was cute, but I never got a kick out of it as much as he did. He used to howl with laughter.
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Post by angilasman on Mar 5, 2013 18:28:43 GMT -5
And you got me on Wimpy Kid, I wasn't familiar with that one (course my eye wouldn't go there) and I don't even recall seeing it on Diamonds sales charts? And I didn't know Bone was still being published. I had a pal who loved that comic, was always making me read it. I thought it was cute, but I never got a kick out of it as much as he did. He used to howl with laughter. Bone ended years ago - but it's an institution to the youngsters now. It's freshly stocked in every kids book section. Funny you should mention the Diamond sales chart: this new generation of kids comics isn't on it. They're published by book companies who publish other children's lit. That's why I was saying that kids comics need to break out of the comic shop where literally the only way kids will get it is if they have comics fan parents. I actually had some more to say about the actual topic of this thread, but I'm tired, so maybe I'll get back to it later.
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Post by Mighty Jack on Mar 6, 2013 1:41:21 GMT -5
Ah okay, I was speaking of monthly peridodicals. yes kids books are a major seller and I imagine graphic novels and the like would do very well in those sections of the bookstore as well. We also have digital firsts to consider, I don't know how well DC is doing with Lil' Gotham, and other digital first comics. But L'il seems pretty popular among it's readers. That could open things up for all-ages comics, as younger folks might be more receptive to digital than us older farts, who are set in our ways.
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Post by angilasman on Mar 6, 2013 20:44:34 GMT -5
^I love paper, I'll always prefer paper (I've made impulse buys inspired solely by quality paper and binding!), but I think digital comics is a good thing for the medium. I mean, webcomics have ended up bringing the format of the daily strip back from the dead and stronger than it's been in decades!
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Post by angilasman on Mar 7, 2013 21:26:38 GMT -5
I want to talk a little about what I think the book Watchmen really is as a piece of literature. It's been taken up as the proof that superheroes can be literary, sophisticated, and artful (and Watchmen is all those things) but amid that I think the theme of Watchmen is usually overlooked: it's not a straight superhero story; it's a harsh, eviscerating parody of the entire concept of comic book superheroes.
The entire plot hinges on the fact that not only would these 'heroes' actually be rather sad and pathetic in real life, but that their influence would be destructive (by having both 'normal' people as superheroes and some actual science fiction elements it's able to thoroughly examine both of those aspects).
Some superhero fans really have a chip on their shoulder about Watchmen and Moore in general and from my vantage is seems to me that this stems (though maybe subconsciously) from the fact that they feel their chosen genre is being thoroughly savaged with the work... because it is. They should well remember, though, that Moore did write very, very good 'pure' superhero works, like his two famous Superman stories. It's clear Moore loves the superheroes, and we always kill the ones we love (to paraphrase that cool, old Peter Lorre movie Mad Love).
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