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Post by losingmydignity on Mar 15, 2004 3:01:52 GMT -5
I basically support it (and I should add I'm not a Republican or big Bush supporter) but I think there's a real problem if it's used for other things...strips clubs, strip searching, stripping us of our rights. I wonder if this can be done. Because I was in NYC that day, and though I didn't lose anyone personally, from my experience. Well, I'm emotional about it. I support most of its provisions.
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Post by marytrobot on Mar 15, 2004 6:00:12 GMT -5
I don't want another 9-11 or 11M, I'm in Spain and the pictures around here are gruesome I can't watch the news or look at the papers, I just don't like seeing pics of all these dead people. I enjoy my civil rights and hate the idea of invasion of privacy, and if the goverment has a system so they cannot abuse the power. I'll give a bit up in order to save a few hundred people from death and thousands from dismemberment. I don't like it much but sometimes you gotta comprimise, privacy, or your friends?
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Post by CherokeeJack on Mar 15, 2004 17:06:00 GMT -5
The patriot acts also gives our government the power to do what dictators can. Esp. if Bush gets his way and admends it, they do not have to give any information about who they have arrested or tell anyone where they are sending them. My boss is from Lebanon. He has always voted republican ever since he had the right to vote, but the patriot act scares him, because it reminds him too much of home. He voted Bush in 2000, but he's not voting for Bush in november because of it.
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Post by lemminkimmen on Mar 16, 2004 10:17:53 GMT -5
The patriot acts also gives our government the power to do what dictators can. Esp. if Bush gets his way and admends it, they do not have to give any information about who they have arrested or tell anyone where they are sending them. My boss is from Lebanon. He has always voted republican ever since he had the right to vote, but the patriot act scares him, because it reminds him too much of home. He voted Bush in 2000, but he's not voting for Bush in november because of it. CJ, I think you nailed it there...the Patriot Act is law right now,-but the administration claims it does not go far enough in letting law enforcement agencies(i.e. the CIA, FBI, all levels of local and state police...) do their job to protect the American people. So they would like to change the Patriot Act to be even more restrictive and invasive(perhaps subjective terms, but then so is "strip search".) Oh, and permanent. They'd like it to be permanent. Seems many (including elected representatives) are opposed to some or all of the Patriot Act, yet the administration insists we make it permanent as soon as possible, and with no further debate. Seems like a good time to be on guard... The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all" -- Thomas Jefferson in letter to Abigail Adams, Paris, 1787 "That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves." --Thomas Jefferson ooops, sorry such a long post...
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Post by lemminkimmen on Mar 16, 2004 10:19:12 GMT -5
But one more thought from a free-thinker:
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Post by marytrobot on Mar 17, 2004 12:09:33 GMT -5
OK I haven't been able to read much up on the partriat act, but what I'm saying is if there was an act that made sure that it wouldn't over power the president, etc, and it actaully helped protect us from possible terrorist acts, I would be willing so give a bit up to prevent another 911 or M11
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Post by CherokeeJack on Mar 17, 2004 16:25:29 GMT -5
Hey Lemmi, where did you get that last Jefferson quote? Its a good one. OK I haven't been able to read much up on the partriat act, but what I'm saying is if there was an act that made sure that it wouldn't over power the president, etc, and it actaully helped protect us from possible terrorist acts, I would be willing so give a bit up to prevent another 911 or M11 Nothing can prevent it but acting on intelligence, not taking away our freedom. The patriot act goes too far, read up on it.
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Post by nightfalcawk on Mar 17, 2004 16:27:30 GMT -5
The Patriot Act is wrong. And bad. The Patriot is badong!
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Post by lemminkimmen on Mar 18, 2004 9:30:08 GMT -5
"Hey Lemmi, where did you get that last Jefferson quote? Its a good one."
CJ, I didn't bookmark the exact site, sorry. Just put the whole quote into your favorite search engine and see what you get.
Or, better yet, search Thomas Jefferson and see what you can find. The more I read about the man, the more impressed I become...
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Post by Buddhist Kitten on Mar 18, 2004 12:16:48 GMT -5
The Patriot Act is wrong. And bad. The Patriot is badong! Even though I do not entirely agree with you, very good Kung Pow! quote.
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Post by mrsphyllistorgo on Mar 20, 2004 16:00:29 GMT -5
Hoo, boy....
What all laws come down to, is safety.
Safety from madness. Safety from losing our money or investments. Safety from those who think the best way to honor God is to cause unimanginable pain and suffering. Safety from those in power who have fallen in love with the power itself, not with the ability it should confer to render services to those they have agreed to lead and protect.
As with everyone else alive in the U.S. today, I remember every detail of 9/11 and the days following. Being stuck in Michigan with my father and sister the day after my grandfather's memorial service with nothing to do except watch CNN in the hotel room or go to my shell-shocked grandmother's and watch CNN with the relatives, all while we all felt guilty for still missing my grandpa when such things had happened. The way my uncle drove me nuts with insisting that it was all Clinton's fault and I shared the blame by voting for him, than making me so proud by calling a local mosque to see if they needed any help guarding their property. The way we didn't know for two days where my mother, who was supposed to be flying out of England that day, was: at one point, we heard her plane had to land in Iceland. The incredible desk clerk at the airport who stayed at her post for three days--if she ever went home, I don't know when it was.
Dear God, of course I never want to go through that again, and neither does Bali, Spain, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, England, Ireland, Scotland, or any other country. We want to be safe and not be hated. The question is, can that ever be a possibility?
I feel the Patriot Act has been marketed as the most Patriotic Safety Blanket you can buy--pull it over your head and the monsters can't get you! But the fact is, countries with the most restrictive, least free daily lives are plagued with endless terrorist acts by those they restrict, whose lives have become barren wastelands of emptiness and hate and truly fear nothing in this world because they have nothing to hope for in it.
There's a reason everyone wants to come to America. You can still hope here, no matter how many horrible acts, political ads, idiot politicians or rigged elections there are. Safety can smother hope if you wrap yourself too tightly in it.
mrsphyllistorgo
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Post by nightfalcawk on Mar 20, 2004 23:19:49 GMT -5
Hoo, boy.... What all laws come down to, is safety. Safety from madness. Safety from losing our money or investments. Safety from those who think the best way to honor God is to cause unimanginable pain and suffering. Safety from those in power who have fallen in love with the power itself, not with the ability it should confer to render services to those they have agreed to lead and protect. As with everyone else alive in the U.S. today, I remember every detail of 9/11 and the days following. Being stuck in Michigan with my father and sister the day after my grandfather's memorial service with nothing to do except watch CNN in the hotel room or go to my shell-shocked grandmother's and watch CNN with the relatives, all while we all felt guilty for still missing my grandpa when such things had happened. The way my uncle drove me nuts with insisting that it was all Clinton's fault and I shared the blame by voting for him, than making me so proud by calling a local mosque to see if they needed any help guarding their property. The way we didn't know for two days where my mother, who was supposed to be flying out of England that day, was: at one point, we heard her plane had to land in Iceland. The incredible desk clerk at the airport who stayed at her post for three days--if she ever went home, I don't know when it was. Dear God, of course I never want to go through that again, and neither does Bali, Spain, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, England, Ireland, Scotland, or any other country. We want to be safe and not be hated. The question is, can that ever be a possibility? I feel the Patriot Act has been marketed as the most Patriotic Safety Blanket you can buy--pull it over your head and the monsters can't get you! But the fact is, countries with the most restrictive, least free daily lives are plagued with endless terrorist acts by those they restrict, whose lives have become barren wastelands of emptiness and hate and truly fear nothing in this world because they have nothing to hope for in it. There's a reason everyone wants to come to America. You can still hope here, no matter how many horrible acts, political ads, idiot politicians or rigged elections there are. Safety can smother hope if you wrap yourself too tightly in it. mrsphyllistorgo I agree. If The Giver taught us anything, it's that safety is a dangerous thing.
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Post by CherokeeJack on Mar 21, 2004 15:10:30 GMT -5
"Richard Clarke, former White House counter-terrorism co-ordinator, has accused the U.S. administration of failing to recognize the al-Qaida threat before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States and then manipulating Americans into war with Iraq with dangerous consequences. He accused Bush of doing "a terrible job on the war against terrorism."" www.cbc.ca/cp/world/040321/w032110.htmlhere is more: news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?c=&p=Richard+ClarkeNeed I say more? ok... Reuters: Sat Mar 20,10:00 PM ET "I find it outrageous that the president is running for re-election on the grounds that he's done such great things about terrorism. He ignored it. He ignored terrorism for months, when maybe we could have done something to stop 9/11," Clarke told CBS. Clarke, who was an adviser to four presidents, says in a book to be published next week that the Bush administration should have taken out al Qaeda and its training camps in Afghanistan long before the attacks of Sept. 11, for which the militant network was blamed. "I think the way he has responded to al Qaeda, both before 9/11 by doing nothing, and by what he's done after 9/11, has made us less safe," Clarke told CBS."" ...And Bush wants the patriot act.
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Post by Mr. Atari on Mar 21, 2004 20:10:19 GMT -5
Wow. So now someone is accusing Bush of not being focused on terrorism enough?
I wish I knew why I was supposed to hate this guy. It's like people can't get their story straight. Everyone keeps telling me to hate him for the opposite reasons they told me to hate him the day before.
But since the topic asked, as a proponent of less government, I think the Patriot Act goes too far. However, I don't think the concept is necessarily totalitarian. I think those that want to experience freedom need to take a personal responsibility to ensure it.
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Post by CherokeeJack on Mar 22, 2004 2:17:47 GMT -5
my point this time wasnt to hate Bush, but show that the patriot act is useless. We had the intel, didn't use it. Something is wrong, fix the system, not the people.
Terrorism can't be fought with terrorism, but it can be prevented.
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