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Post by monkeypretzel on Aug 6, 2019 17:12:11 GMT -5
What I don't care for is the implication by the original Twitter poster, and others, that if you don't agree with changing Gypsy's name, then you must be a bigot against the Romani, and/or enjoy using ethnic slurs. I don't believe that's true of anyone and it's a rotten tactic to take.
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Post by gorncaptain on Aug 6, 2019 19:29:57 GMT -5
That's how some people operate, unfortunately. And when someone points out the obvious flaw in their argument, they block them.
Just a quick perusal of the digital version of the phone book White pages reveals a lot of people with the last name Gypsy.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Aug 6, 2019 19:50:19 GMT -5
This so freaking, mind-bendingly stupid.
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Post by mylungswereaching on Aug 7, 2019 0:18:45 GMT -5
MST3k is essentially an American show. Gypsy is not usually considered an insult in the US. But it is considered an insult in Europe. If they want to get fans in Europe, using a name which many people consider insulting would be a bad business move. You get a lot of things like this internationally. There was a car named the Nova. But no va in spanish means doesn't go. They had to change the name in spanish countries. There are a lot of words that are harmless in one country but a deadly insult in another. I once bought a pair of chinese pliers from the fucheng company. (I have no idea how it should be pronounced but you know how I did when I asked for the pliers.
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Post by Troy's Dad on Aug 7, 2019 10:44:29 GMT -5
Unless seasons 11 and 12 took Europe by storm, I think the ship has sailed on building a bigger European audience and changing the name now will not do a thing. I doubt people were turned off from watching because of her name, and since they'd never scrub every mention of Gypsy they have 12 seasons of "problematic" content that is never going away.
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Post by foreign object on Aug 7, 2019 17:30:43 GMT -5
The first syllable in Twitter pretty much describes a portion of the populace that gets their panties in a knot over ridiculous things. I got a Twitter account for one reason only, to participate and communicate in discussion with one of my musical heroes, Andy Partridge of XTC. It was such a neat thing to be able to follow him and talk to him. And then came political discussions where a bunch of narrow minded trolls accused him of racism and other unfounded nonsense and he just basically pulled the plug on his account. Some people really need to get a grip and lighten up.
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Post by tvsfrank on Aug 8, 2019 7:33:14 GMT -5
I find it funny that anyone defends continued use of a racist term.
As Joel wrote, what is the downside to not using it any longer?
There is none. It hurts nobody to change it. It certainly doesn’t hurt any of you.
It’s wonderfully entertaining, though, to watch people get offended at making something less offensive to others at zero loss to themselves. Or claiming that the anonymous opinions of people on the net are less important than their own anonymous opinions on the net.
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Post by Troy's Dad on Aug 8, 2019 9:28:28 GMT -5
Nobody is defending a racist term. Fans are pointing out how ridiculous it is that a name that has applied to a character for over 30 years, that has zero connection to Romani people, is suddenly being changed because a handful of people Tweeted to Joel.
I'm glad you're entertained though, and that you're happy to label other fans.
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Post by Mod City on Aug 8, 2019 17:12:22 GMT -5
This thread is trending toward Observer's Brain territory, but what the heck.
There are no great arguments when it comes to this subject. Whether those of us in the United States think of gypsy as a general term or a reference to an ethnic group really isn't relevant. It is a reference to an ethnic group somewhere, and whatever the intentions were when Gypsy was named, I think it's prudent of Joel to at least consider the criticism.
Now, obviously, as a fan of the show and Joel since the early 1990s, I know he did not name Gypsy with offensive intentions. Gypsy is a beloved character. Friendly, caring, maternalistic. And if you don't think of or know the term as an ethnic reference, it's a cool name. And it's been used in many other places and by other people besides the name of a character in a puppet show.
I do think this is coming from a hyper-sensitive social media viewpoint, but it has valid points. Over the last couple of decades, Native American references have been generally, quietly, removed as high school and college sports mascots. This was a relatively big deal where I'm from, as many, many area high schools had mascots like Indians, Braves and Bucks. I genuinely believe the supporters of these mascot names when they say they believe it's a sign of respect and strength to use those terms as mascots, but when you reduce an entire ethnicity to a team name, you better have a pretty good argument as to why people of that ethnicity shouldn't be sensitive to it.
Especially with a term like Bucks. That was short for Buckskins (a term they changed to Bucks after earlier criticism) and the school gym was adorned with a mural of a Native American in full headdress. They eventually changed their mascot entirely to the Bucks, as in "male deer," and replaced the mural with a 12-point deer buck. The girls teams were changed to Gazelles, which is weird, because it's an entirely different species.
And really, is there anyone who doesn't think Redskins is an offensive term?
Now, to be fair, if we're going to go by this yardstick, the Minnesota Vikings should probably change their name, as should the Notre Dame Fighting Irish, but nobody seems to complain about those. If it's the principle of the thing, then it should apply to all groups, not just those who speak up about their discomfort with the term.
In this case, I think Joel is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He certainly isn't going to go back through 200 episodes of the show to change the name (it's said and shown in every opening, for crying out loud). He's Joel. He's a sensitive person, too, and like he said, he never meant to offend.
If I were Joel I'd leave the name as is and welcome continued discussion. I know in the world of social media that seems like asking for trouble, but it's the high road, and it's hard to go wrong if you honestly listen and weigh the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 17:23:08 GMT -5
The difference here is it's a name. A name that some people actually have. No one is walking up to those who are named Gypsy and suggesting to them that they should change their name. I guess I'll go burn all my Stevie Nicks albums...
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Post by tvsfrank on Aug 8, 2019 17:25:56 GMT -5
Nobody is defending a racist term. Fans are pointing out how ridiculous it is that a name that has applied to a character for over 30 years, that has zero connection to Romani people, is suddenly being changed because a handful of people Tweeted to Joel. I'm glad you're entertained though, and that you're happy to label other fans. You have been defending the continued use of a racist term. In your post denying that you are doing it, you continue to do it. Throughout this thread you have been doing it. It is not ridiculous to change the name. It’s a little thing that may mean something to someone — and it hurts you, me and other fans in zero ways. Joel is coming across here as thoughtful, reasonable and interested in doing the decent thing. Follow that lead. I haven’t labeled anyone with anything. If you feel labeled by your behavior, that’s all you. Don’t project that onto me. It’s certainly entertaining, though, to see people complain about the very same behavior they engage in.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 17:26:03 GMT -5
Well, there goes my Cher collection...
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Post by Mod City on Aug 8, 2019 17:34:58 GMT -5
The difference here is it's a name. A name that some people actually have. No one is walking up to those who are named Gypsy and suggesting to them that they should change their name. I guess I'll go burn all my Stevie Nicks albums... Fair point, for sure. The mascot analogy is not a perfect one. With mascots, the name represents members of the student body in their athletic and other endeavors. Often we're talking about public schools, which are taxpayer-funded. That's a way different thing than someone's personal name, which is what we're talking about with Gypsy's name, even if it is a fictional character.
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Post by hike'em'up on Aug 8, 2019 19:47:19 GMT -5
I find it funny that anyone defends continued use of a racist term.... It’s wonderfully entertaining, though, to watch people get offended at making something less offensive... Or claiming that the anonymous opinions of people on the net are less important than their own anonymous opinions on the net. wouldnt the term 'Gypsy,' used in its very worst intent - which Joel clearly wasn't doing on his tv show - be an ethnic slur and not racist? the Egyptian and Romani aren't even races of people, for those at the house of folks who choose to entertain the idea that races even exist and call things out as racist which really arent anyway, i'm not at all afraid to go ahead and say that the opinions of anonymous dipsh_ts on twitter whom are quite clearly trolling for conflict/attention are less important than my genuine own nor those of genuine others. some people carry honest conversations while others actively attempt to derail it with this very same brand of stupidity. sorry, dont really think much at all of that. seriously, as Mod City stated above, there is not one bit of negativity built into the Gypsy character. unless I am missing something or forgetting a segment to the contrary, she is shown love and affection on the show, with even a segment devoted to her importance in maintaining their survival on the SOL; she is often celebrated. any person confusing any of that affection over 10+ seasons of MST3K for some subliminal malintent towards cultural groups is doing so deliberately. and i personally see no benefit whatsoever for anybody to indulge it. now, please enjoy this. its definitely not racist www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KztNIg4cvE
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Post by Diet Kolos on Aug 8, 2019 19:58:44 GMT -5
But it shares the name of a possible ethnic slur! It's tangentially racist! Admit I'm right, admit I'm right!
By this logic, I should be able to go on Twitter and berate Joel about Crow's name. Maybe its a cultural appropriation of the Native American tribe's name? Maybe it's play on the term "Jim Crow"? And what of Servo? His first name is Tom? Possible reference to "Uncle Tom"? No robot is safe when you use your imagination!
All possible permutations of overt and covert racial and offensive naming conventions in this puppet show must be swiftly dealt with, whether they were intentional or not!
Who's to say that I'm being ridiculous and mindlessly reactionary? I can just claim you're supporting racism if you disagree!
Say...I also seem to recall them making some racist jokes in some of the older Japanese films, Perhaps we should lobby Joel and Shout to excise those jokes. Or, heck, why be too careful, completely remove the offending episodes circulation!
With your help, there's no moral outrage we can't conjure up! Because we certainly can't be adults who consider things in context, have frank discussions, and understand what people in the past were and weren't thinking, where they were wrong or where they actually had no malicious intent,and how those things relate to us now, without going on a manic censoring spree.
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