|
Post by kracker on Dec 11, 2023 3:12:16 GMT -5
Huge difference being that the campaigns you’re talking about were raising thousands of dollars. As you said, the MST3k campaigns were multimillion dollar campaigns, the highest on the platform. It’s fair to wonder if Kickstarter didn’t want to kick the hornets nest on this one and perhaps there were relationship issues, but given the botched decision making from the word go on this, it wouldn’t surprise me that they went with an upstart platform to save 3%. Or Occum's Razor: there weren't any relationship issues, they just wanted to do the fundraiser onsite, like people here wanted them too. Seriously, them doing another Kickstarter would not have gone well with you guys. It would be "ugh why are they going with Kickstarter AGAIN? Why are they letting them take 8% of MY money? Why is Joel so dumb?". They do it onsite and its about how Kickstarter didn't wanna do business with dirtbag Joel. So then, um, what was the first kickstarter for, wasn’t that to raise money to produce new episodes? The whole point of the first kickstarter was to raise money, produce episodes and then find a distributor. It wasn’t to find a coproduction partner. It’s pretty clear Joel has no idea when it comes to budgeting, and I don’t think anyone is suggesting Joel is spending money on things that would be viewed as outside the parameters of ‘production’ but they’re questioning just what he is having the production spending money and time on. they did produce episodes with that money. As a result, they were able to air the episodes outside Netflix on their own platform. That took priority over being able to reuse a doorway sequence, that wouldn't have matched with the look of the covid production anyway. And they did find a distributor, Netflix, who wanted to be more than a distributor and get into the MST3K business, and gave them a partnership offer that to everyone looked like a good deal, especially when we saw how good The Return came out. And like I said, we don't know, I'm not going to speculate on their books, there's absolutely no point. And it's foolish to do so, especially when you're basing it off your own confirmation bias. "Joel has no idea when it comes to budgeting" because that's not even his job. He's not in charge of that. This is why you have line producers and other co-producers that work on the show to do the budgeting. hell, that's why you have a coproduction partner. If Joel can't budget like you say, then don't you WANT a coproduction partner like Netflix to oversee the production's budget? He's not blowing the money because he's in charge of the show itself not the spending.
|
|
|
Post by dudehitscar on Dec 11, 2023 11:50:54 GMT -5
So they underbudgeted the actual cost to be running the campaign on crowdfunder with nothing but illogical hope that fans would pay ALL the fees for them? They gave up Kickstarter's much stronger userbase/social media presence/etc on sheer hope that the fans would deliver the savings? That is so absurdly dumb that I am now convinced kickstarter told them they weren't welcome back until they fulfilled the all the deliverables of the previous one. It was also only a 5% fee compared to kickstarters 8%. I also have had the thought that they didn't use kickstarter because ks wasn't interested in partnering/promoting the new campaign because they reviewed it and could tell it was a sh|t show and declined. What I am seeing is that Kickstarters fee is 5% just like crowdfundr.. you get to 8% when you include the payment processing fees. Crowdfunder has payment processing fees too but joel and co didn't budget for them and apparantley relied on hope that the fans would voluntarily pay those on top of their pledge. It's a shell game move with almost no guarateed savings to joel and co.
|
|
|
Post by BoB3K on Dec 11, 2023 12:32:55 GMT -5
Oh i see. I was just going by the 8% actually listed on the KS pages, but that makes sense to include all fees. Maybe they are included on the new crowdfundr too, and they're only taking 2% on top of the 3% CC fees?
|
|
|
Post by dudehitscar on Dec 11, 2023 13:34:58 GMT -5
Oh i see. I was just going by the 8% actually listed on the KS pages, but that makes sense to include all fees. Maybe they are included on the new crowdfundr too, and they're only taking 2% on top of the 3% CC fees? that doesnt seem to be an option.. perhaps they gave joel a special deal since they were asking for millions from backers. again some transparency would go a long way. crowdfundr.com/pages/pricing/
|
|
|
Post by BoB3K on Dec 11, 2023 15:57:22 GMT -5
So I read this years ago. Probably one of the best MST3K bios. www.wired.com/2014/04/mst3k-oral-history/I saw a link to it recently, I think by monkeypretzel somewhere and I was giving it a reread, and I saw this-- Right, one of the things NuMST3K is missing, straight from Joel. Sometimes I think Joel really did forget what made MST3K special, or just got old and convinced himself differently. I know they replaced Tom, but Kevin was still doing Josh's Tom, but in his own way. Bill too, replaced Trace, but was still 'doing' Crow in his own way. They should have actually auditioned and cast Tom and Crow replacement comedians, or brought in two new robots.
|
|
|
Post by BilLumberg on Dec 11, 2023 16:49:47 GMT -5
I fear that all bringing back the show did at this point was reinforce the stigma that MST3K can't be a profitable show. The best outcome I can see is that there is an angel investor who believes that the show can move forward with new management. This would most likely require Joel giving up creative control, and it does look like he may be ready to do just that. Worst case is that production companies have seen the problems the last three seasons have had, even with large influxes of essentially free money, and a failed partnership with netflix, and want safer projects to invest in.
I feel that this is a show that could run indefinitely like saturday night live under the right circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by kracker on Dec 11, 2023 18:22:48 GMT -5
I fear that all bringing back the show did at this point was reinforce the stigma that MST3K can't be a profitable show. The best outcome I can see is that there is an angel investor who believes that the show can move forward with new management. This would most likely require Joel giving up creative control, and it does look like he may be ready to do just that. Worst case is that production companies have seen the problems the last three seasons have had, even with large influxes of essentially free money, and a failed partnership with netflix, and want safer projects to invest in. I feel that this is a show that could run indefinitely like saturday night live under the right circumstances. Its definitely the most difficult show to be profitable, not just because of the cost of movie rights and how acquiring them has changed since the 90's but the fact it can only be sold in the US market (and a couple of others I think) and all these streaming services depend on international markets to be profitable. The show certainly needs some clever restructuring and budgeting and even after that, the show can't be that profitable. Btw this was why Joel tried to have the fans fund the show. The fans are the ideal angel investor, willing to fund the show just for the love of the show and they would only be beholden to the fanbase.
|
|
|
Post by dudehitscar on Dec 11, 2023 19:45:42 GMT -5
So I read this years ago. Probably one of the best MST3K bios. www.wired.com/2014/04/mst3k-oral-history/I saw a link to it recently, I think by monkeypretzel somewhere and I was giving it a reread, and I saw this-- Right, one of the things NuMST3K is missing, straight from Joel. Sometimes I think Joel really did forget what made MST3K special, or just got old and convinced himself differently. I know they replaced Tom, but Kevin was still doing Josh's Tom, but in his own way. Bill too, replace Trace, but was still 'doing' Crow in his own way. They should have actually auditioned and cast Tom and Crow replacement comedians, or brought in two new robots. Baron and Hampton nailed their roles IMO. they had the qualities that trace and josh did while also bringing their own flavor. Bill corbett can't do half the characters that hampton can.. he was perfect for it. It's one the best things did for numst3k is he didn't cast them.. He let Jonah pick his team. Jonah picked great folks that he had chemistry with him and matched the characters well. The problem is they didn't let them write on all the episodes or puppeeter. So they were hampered in that way and were unable to get their own flavor and chemistry consistently in the riff writing. When Joel did casting we for the bots professional pupeeteers first and comedic ability second.. and the results speak for themselves with Emily's crew.
|
|
|
Post by intonyeon on Dec 11, 2023 19:53:32 GMT -5
Again, it is ironic just how relatively cheap it is compared to much more “expensive” shows, while also not being particularly profitable. If a whole season is just 4.9 million, then where can merchandise and toys play into it?
The rifftrax model, for as much as it seems like a tax fraud scheme, has very little in overhead, but I did notice they license movies nowadays too.. I wonder how much that is.
|
|
|
Post by dudehitscar on Dec 11, 2023 21:11:58 GMT -5
I fear that all bringing back the show did at this point was reinforce the stigma that MST3K can't be a profitable show. The best outcome I can see is that there is an angel investor who believes that the show can move forward with new management. This would most likely require Joel giving up creative control, and it does look like he may be ready to do just that. Worst case is that production companies have seen the problems the last three seasons have had, even with large influxes of essentially free money, and a failed partnership with netflix, and want safer projects to invest in. I feel that this is a show that could run indefinitely like saturday night live under the right circumstances. 4 liveshows a year, small kickstarters to fund the movie rights, broadcast out via fathom to theaters across the country, record and sell the show afterwards... ala the Rifftrax live model. Profitable, sustainable, and no long periods of nothing new being released and earning revenue. It would be different than the old show seasons but it would be awesome. That is the best outcome IMO. Worry about doing studio seasons later.. build a new audience and wait till the old casts retires from their riffing projects (and for Joel to get out of the way). Build from there and keep looking for the right opportunity to get back on tv with studio episodes without begging the fan base for millions of dollars.
|
|
|
Post by puppetwhisperer on Dec 11, 2023 22:35:10 GMT -5
BTW, unless RiffTrax got some sort of sweetheart deal for getting in early, I can tell you that those fathom event broadcasts are VERY expensive for the people putting on the show. Fathom likes to make money both on the people creating the content, and the people paying to see it. I suspect that is why we never saw one of the MST3k live shows get the fathom treatment.
|
|
|
Post by puppetwhisperer on Dec 11, 2023 22:49:21 GMT -5
I fear that all bringing back the show did at this point was reinforce the stigma that MST3K can't be a profitable show. The best outcome I can see is that there is an angel investor who believes that the show can move forward with new management. This would most likely require Joel giving up creative control, and it does look like he may be ready to do just that. Worst case is that production companies have seen the problems the last three seasons have had, even with large influxes of essentially free money, and a failed partnership with netflix, and want safer projects to invest in. I feel that this is a show that could run indefinitely like saturday night live under the right circumstances. Its definitely the most difficult show to be profitable, not just because of the cost of movie rights and how acquiring them has changed since the 90's but the fact it can only be sold in the US market (and a couple of others I think) and all these streaming services depend on international markets to be profitable. The show certainly needs some clever restructuring and budgeting and even after that, the show can't be that profitable. Btw this was why Joel tried to have the fans fund the show. The fans are the ideal angel investor, willing to fund the show just for the love of the show and they would only be beholden to the fanbase. If there will be any future episodes, they will be produced by shout. They already own a good portion (and perhaps all, depending on what source you look at.) of the show, and they have rights to many of the movies they distribute. That puts them in the position of being the only people with a chance to make it profitable. But even taking movie licensing out of the equation (which I believe has always been presented at an inflated rate: Ask the Demon Squad producers how much they got... I think they've stated publicly something like $10-15k) this show is costing way too much money.
|
|
|
Post by dudehitscar on Dec 11, 2023 23:01:51 GMT -5
BTW, unless RiffTrax got some sort of sweetheart deal for getting in early, I can tell you that those fathom event broadcasts are VERY expensive for the people putting on the show. Fathom likes to make money both on the people creating the content, and the people paying to see it. I suspect that is why we never saw one of the MST3k live shows get the fathom treatment. eh.. if rifftrax can make a profit on the fathom events then MST3K sure can.
|
|
|
Post by geordiegirl on Dec 12, 2023 8:36:06 GMT -5
I've said it before but we really need clarity on who owns what and who is in charge of what.
I've heard Joel say several times that pay is "above his paygrade". Then maybe tell us who is in charge of the budget. Get them to put out a statement/email, even something like "hi, I'm x and I'm (insert fancy job title) and I'm here to explain exactly what I'm gonna be doing with the money".
And then Joel/Matt can use that statement to refer to in interviews/promotions.
I know we get a run down of "x % is going on salaries" etc, but I mean do a complete rundown: we are spending x amount on set building. X amount on crew, x amount on puppets" etc.
Also, add something like if they do go overbudget then how are they going to fund that. At least SOME of our worries/ questions will be answered.
|
|
|
Post by BoB3K on Dec 12, 2023 12:56:04 GMT -5
The problem is they didn't let them write on all the episodes or puppeeter. So they were hampered in that way and were unable to get their own flavor and chemistry consistently in the riff writing. When Joel did casting we for the bots professional pupeeteers first and comedic ability second.. and the results speak for themselves with Emily's crew. Good point. I mostly agree with you on Hampton, don't really agree with you on Baron, but the point remains. It's a symptom of how the show is run now, and until they fix that, they will never have another golden era.
|
|