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Post by civlyzed on Apr 12, 2004 12:53:24 GMT -5
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Post by CherokeeJack on Apr 12, 2004 15:07:08 GMT -5
You have to see it from an Iraqi's POV. We take over, get rid of Saddam yet the place is still a police state, crime and unemployment are rampant. We have given promises about helping the nation which aparently have not happend, and if we have created all these schools and made places for Iraqis to work, then why would they be fighting back? I believe the reports we see about making Iraq better are greatly over exagerated. The universal truth is that we all want a better life and I think the Iraqis feel used so that America can get oil.
They are afraid of being exploited. Why shouldn't they be after Saddam ruled the country for so long abusing the people? They would have a hard time trusting any governemt esp. a forgien one.
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Post by CherokeeJack on Apr 12, 2004 15:12:26 GMT -5
I guess to tie into the overall topic somewhat, when you are out gunned and under trained the only tactics you can resort to are hit and runs and kidnappings.
The Iraqis want America gone and if they keep threatening others and releasing video they believe it will scare us into backing off. Juts look at Japan now, massive protests to get Japan out of Iraq. The tactic works.
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Post by CherokeeJack on Apr 12, 2004 15:49:39 GMT -5
Another thing. Jihad is not even a major part of islam. It is barely even mentioned in the Koran. The terrorists and the dissendents are warping the veiws of the religion to their own ends. Its kinda like when right wingers call libs anti-american and unpatriotic (except without the violence), america was founded on different view points and opinions and actaully not expressing your views is more unpatriotic. Yeah I had to throw that in there. Islam is for truth and understanding, not war and dieing for their god, but the "terrorists" will try to convince their own country men otherwise.
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Post by nightfalcawk on Apr 12, 2004 15:52:45 GMT -5
Another thing. Jihad is not even a major part of islam. It is barely even mentioned in the Koran. The terrorists and the dissendents are warping the veiws of the religion to their own ends. Its kinda like when right wingers call libs anti-american and unpatriotic (except without the violence), america was founded on different view points and opinions and actaully not expressing your views is more unpatriotic. Yeah I had to throw that in there. Islam is for truth and understanding, not war and dieing for their god, but the "terrorists" will try to convince their own country men otherwise. I know. People lose sight of that sometimes. |
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Post by MonsterX on Apr 12, 2004 18:10:34 GMT -5
Another thing. Jihad is not even a major part of islam. It is barely even mentioned in the Koran. The terrorists and the dissendents are warping the veiws of the religion to their own ends. Its kinda like when right wingers call libs anti-american and unpatriotic (except without the violence), america was founded on different view points and opinions and actaully not expressing your views is more unpatriotic. Yeah I had to throw that in there. Islam is for truth and understanding, not war and dieing for their god, but the "terrorists" will try to convince their own country men otherwise. Huzza! It’s my understanding that the hard line Islamic extremists are the ones behind all the terrorist acts and kidnappings that are occurring in Iraq right now. They want every one to pull out so they can turn Iraq into a religious state like Iran. And yes, when you are confronted with overwhelming numbers you resort to some desperate tactics, but only a very evil person would capture and murder innocent civilians. America wants to make Iraq into a democracy. The extremists want to turn Iraq into a hard line religious state, ala the Taliban. Whether I’m pro Bush or anti Bush, I do believe that our country is trying to do the right thing in Iraq right now, and I wish I was smart enough to think of a solution that would solve this problem for everyone. Unfortunately, sometimes there is no right answer. Were in for a rough ride kids. |
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Post by Mr. Atari on Apr 12, 2004 18:26:33 GMT -5
Another thing. Jihad is not even a major part of islam. It is barely even mentioned in the Koran. The terrorists and the dissendents are warping the veiws of the religion to their own ends. Its kinda like when right wingers call libs anti-american and unpatriotic (except without the violence), america was founded on different view points and opinions and actaully not expressing your views is more unpatriotic. Yeah I had to throw that in there. Islam is for truth and understanding, not war and dieing for their god, but the "terrorists" will try to convince their own country men otherwise. CJ, have you ever read the Koran? I'm just curious. I have read it, and you're right. The word Jihad isn't mentioned that often. But the principle of responding to non-Muslims with violence runs pretty thick throughout. I think you'd have a very difficult time defending the statement that "Islam is for truth and understanding". Many Muslims might be in favor of peace, but as a faith system, an openness to peacefully understanding and respecting other beliefs is not really an option. And as Westerners, we all (whether Bush-backers or not) are seen as the bringers of evil into their culture. Evil things like personal freedom, women's rights, and a potential for a middle class. I think the response of the extremists and sub-humane warfare they insist on waging increases my resolve that we need to finish the job. If we pull out now, they should put a sign on the border of Iraq that says: Welcome to the next terrorism center of planet earth. Their national motto could be, "We made the U.S. turn tail." |
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Post by losingmydignity on Apr 12, 2004 23:54:19 GMT -5
CJ, have you ever read the Koran? I'm just curious. I have read it, and you're right. The word Jihad isn't mentioned that often. But the principle of responding to non-Muslims with violence runs pretty thick throughout. I think you'd have a very difficult time defending the statement that "Islam is for truth and understanding". Many Muslims might be in favor of peace, but as a faith system, an openness to peacefully understanding and respecting other beliefs is not really an option. And as Westerners, we all (whether Bush-backers or not) are seen as the bringers of evil into their culture. Evil things like personal freedom, women's rights, and a potential for a middle class. I think the response of the extremists and sub-humane warfare they insist on waging increases my resolve that we need to finish the job. If we pull out now, they should put a sign on the border of Iraq that says: Welcome to the next terrorism center of planet earth. Their national motto could be, "We made the U.S. turn tail." Right on, Sampo! I totally agree... |
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Post by MonsterX on Apr 13, 2004 0:33:21 GMT -5
/\
I would like to third that.
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Post by Ator on Apr 13, 2004 0:51:15 GMT -5
This is a very interesting e-mail that I got recently:
Allah or Jesus?
Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.
After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.
When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"
There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, "Nonbelievers!"
I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"
The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to
that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."
I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"
The Imam was speechless.
I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"
You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.
Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.
I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your email contacts.
This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well known leader in prison ministry.
Take it for what it's worth.
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Post by losingmydignity on Apr 13, 2004 1:24:17 GMT -5
Do you know the original source of this story, Ator? I'd be very interested to know...
I always try to keep an open mind about people of different faiths, I mean really, but...there was this Muslim guy at my work (from Yemen) and, a few months after Sept. 11th, I was talking to him and during a conversation about the invasion of Afghanistan was stunned to hear him say that the Sept. 11th attackers were brave and that Timothy McVeigh was brave...
And my mind has been slowly closing ever since...
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Post by MonsterX on Apr 13, 2004 2:35:03 GMT -5
Do you know the original source of this story, Ator? I'd be very interested to know... I always try to keep an open mind about people of different faiths, I mean really, but...there was this Muslim guy at my work (from Yemen) and, a few months after Sept. 11th, I was talking to him and during a conversation about the invasion of Afghanistan was stunned to hear him say that the Sept. 11th attackers were brave and that Timothy McVeigh was brave... And my mind has been slowly closing ever since... I like to think that I’m really open-minded when it comes to another person’s religion. I’m agnostic and my wife is Wican, so I kind of have to be. I would really like to study up on the Muslim religion before dismissing them outright as a society of fanatics, but any religion that encourages violence against another person simply cannot co-exist with the world as it is today. Since the beginning of recorded history, entire civilizations have been brought up around religion. Countless numbers of people have died or have been murdered in the mane of religion. My question is, (and this is totally hypothetical, as I have an extremely limited amount of knowledge concerning the Muslim faith, and I mean absolutely no offence to anyone out there who might be insulted by my following question) if a religion exists that is deemed to be a “menace” to the general population of the world, does anyone have the right to declare war on the religion, and attempt to eliminate it from the world? Every problem just raises more questions. Some questions don’t have a right answer. Hitler thought he was in the right when tried to murder every Jewish person in Europe, and we all know what a nutcase he was. Are we really at war with terrorism, or is terrorism really a code word for Islam extremists? Would it be right for a country to go about the world and systematically exterminate the members of ANY religion that has been deemed dangerous? And Dangerous to whom? Who makes that call? I’m not taking any sides here; I’m just a young fool who loves his wife, MST and old monster movies. I don’t have the cognitive capacity to solve the world’s problems; I feel lucky that I can tie my shoes in the morning so that I can go to work. What I’m saying is that most of the problems that we are experiencing right now run much deeper than who is going to be the next president of The United States, of who will be the next Prime Minister of Britton. It’s a wonderful/scary time to be alive right now, but the world has made it through much worse in the past. All we can do is our best. Were only stupid humans after all.  I promise that I will never write a post this long again. Blah!  |
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Post by nightfalcawk on Apr 13, 2004 9:04:12 GMT -5
Sounds like the guy who wrote the article is prejudiced. Just because that's the beleif of some diehard doesn't mean the religion directly teached hate. What he was doing is just as bad as the Muslim Imam in saying that his religion is right. Religion isn't a preference it's a belief. I don't believe that there are witches, as the Bible directly states (it says "sorceress shall not live"). However, some die-hards back then DID belive that. Eventually, to be functional, Iraq will have to overcome that. It's inevitable for the evolution of society.
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Post by Mr. Atari on Apr 13, 2004 10:53:07 GMT -5
I've participated in a "Multi-Faith" panel on more than one occasion. Last year, for example, I sat on a dais with a Rabbi, a Nun, and the leader of Denver's Islamic society. We fielded questions similar to Ator's email. What was fascinating to me was to what great lengths each person went to convince the audience that their beliefs were the same as mine. I spent most of my time pointing out how little in common Protestantism has with Islam. When asked a tough question like in Ator's email, the Muslim would quickly change the subject to talk about what a good prophet Jesus was. It was quite an attempt at a spin job- and he didn't do a very good job.
I think multiple faiths can co-exist peacefully. But to ask a follower of a faith that teaches exclusivity to suddenly be "understanding" or "inclusively tolerant" is to ask them to compromise their faith. Or, at the very least, to be purposefully inconsistent with the teachings of their holy book. This is true for Muslims, Christians, Jews, and many others.
I think we'd all like it if every faith system was true and none were false, because then we'd all get along better. But logically, it can't be the case. Mainly because so many religions teach that their's is the only one that's true.
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Post by lemminkimmen on Apr 13, 2004 10:55:28 GMT -5
Well said, Sampo.
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