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Post by servosoxfan on Apr 18, 2004 13:21:26 GMT -5
What should have been done was allow the iraqies to revolt on their own, with encouragement. When a country is given their freedom on a plate they don't know how to apreciate it. But a country that fights for it, will continue to fight for it forever. True, this would have been the ideal situation. No US deaths, and although there would still have been chaos, it would not be on our hands, and there would not be as much anti-US sentiment. I will remind you of a few facts however. 1) we have been trying to get the Iraqis to revolt for 13 years. Saddam ran a fascist state and any sign of resistance was met with death squads. 2) Internal regime change would not necessarily have resulted in a happy US friendly democratic state. Dont forget Saddam took power in a revolution as well. Any insurgency would have most likely resulted in far far more bloodshed and the rise to power of either repressive islamicist dictatorship semi-controlled by Iran or another military dictator. I know that the deaths, both US, coalition and Iraqi (as well as any others) are tragic. Death and war should never be celebrated. However, we must maintain perspective. In Chechnya, Kosovo, Rwanda and Somalia there was death on a much larger scale. In those places where the US was not involved, Chechnya and Rwanda, MILLIONS died because we did nothing in a time of crisis. In those places where we were involved, Somalia and Bosnia, we only acted after tragedy was out of hand and never gave the operations the support needed. So, while i mourn the deaths of ours and theirs (including those soldiers i knew personally) i believe that our cause is just and should be judged by historic standards. Also, you claim that whe a country is given its freedom on a plate, they dont know how to appreciate it. The citizens of Iraq struggled against saddams facsist regime for decades, nothing was given to them on a plate. Furthermore, the Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians Bulgarians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Poles, Slovaks and Ukrainians were also given freedom, and have handled it admirably. So to were the Spainish from Franco, the S. Africans from De Klerk and, most famously, the Germans, Italians and Japanese were "liberated" in some snese of the word, administered by the US for 10 years, and granted democracy, they are today respectivley the 3, 6 and 2 most industrialized nations in the world and all with fully functioning democratic governments. (China is still listed as industrializing and Germany is tied with the UK) A couple of facts from Human Rights Watch www.hrw.org and wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_deathsundersaddamhussein42503.htmlEstimated Rwandan civilian deaths in 1994 alone: 500,000 Estimated Bosnian/Serb/Croat/Albanian civilian deaths 1.2 million since 1992 Estimated Chechen civilian deaths 1991-present 350,000 Estimated Somali deaths due to starvation when warlords blocked UN aid 3 million from 1992-4 From reactionary purges after US aid/military catastrophe 24,000 Estimated civilian deaths under Saddam from 1981-2003 600,000 documented murders plus 500,000 dead of those forcibly drafted into Iran Iraq war(this doesn’t include standing army or accidental civilian deaths of the Iran war or US actions). That’s 125 civilians murdered a day for the exactly 8000 days under Saddam. This is equivalent to Auchwitz concentration camp running for 2 years, Dachau concentration camp for six years or Mauthausen concentration camp running for 70 years. US Personnel dead thus far: an even 700 as of this post, and their sacrifice will stop the number below from becoming the numbers above Estimate civilian deaths in Iraq April 2003-present 4,000-6,000. 2,500 of these were shot by Iraqi Fedayeen or killed in anti-US car bombs
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Post by servosoxfan on Apr 18, 2004 13:24:37 GMT -5
I don't think anyone sane wishes to live in times like these, but we must face them with what courage we can muster. More often than we'd like to admit a diabolical madman arises and galvanizes the lowest and most twisted fantasies of a civilization or religion and those of us who would rather not have to rise to the challenge and put an end to it for the good of a feckless world. Bin Laden and his followers are just one more a long line of charismatic lunatics that do not care in the slightest who gets hurt on their way to their vision of a perfect and ordered world. Ain't gonna happen. Bin Laden's Islamic Planet Earth has no more chance of suceeding than Gengis Khan's, Cromwell, Napolean's or Hitler's vision of Earthly Paradise. Trust me. Touche. Im sure many people felt scared and depressed in 1939. Times such as these test the will of each perosn as well as the will of humanity. To quote Churchill: "We cannot expect victory, we must deserve victory!"
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Post by Mr. Atari on Apr 18, 2004 15:14:22 GMT -5
servosoxfan, It's nice to have you around.
That's all I'm saying.
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Post by marytrobot on Apr 19, 2004 9:07:03 GMT -5
Also, you claim that whe a country is given its freedom on a plate, they dont know how to appreciate it. The citizens of Iraq struggled against saddams facsist regime for decades, nothing was given to them on a plate. Furthermore, the Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians Bulgarians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Poles, Slovaks and Ukrainians were also given freedom, and have handled it admirably. So to were the Spainish from Franco, the S. Africans from De Klerk and, most famously, the Germans, Italians and Japanese were "liberated" in some snese of the word, administered by the US for 10 years, and granted democracy, they are today respectivley the 3, 6 and 2 most industrialized nations in the world and all with fully functioning democratic governments. (China is still listed as industrializing and Germany is tied with the UK) I don't know about all of the countries you've mentioned, but I do know that Spain, and Brazil, have many problems, I have friends from Brazil, and they're always concerend about how people don't seem to realy care about their system, theyd rather have a different one. In spain I've seen people on serious discussions taling about how the country would be better off with a dictator, that "spain isn't prepared for democracy" less that 37 percent of people vote here. anyways that's why I say this, from the countries that I personnally have experianced (which isn't many i know) democracy works better when it's been fought for.
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Post by servosoxfan on Apr 19, 2004 10:03:41 GMT -5
MaryT,
I realize i went on a bit of a rant back there, i tend to do that. But my originial intent was to voice reserved agreement with your original point. You are quite right (and unfortunately in the minority) in saying that democracy doesnt always work. Brazil is, as you pointed out, a democratic catastrophe, and Spain struggled for many years to overcome its own dictator complex. What i would point out is how these nations have been helped by free trade Brazil via OAS and Spain with the Euro. Anyway. stimulating points
Cheers (i lived in London, where this is a universal thank you/goodbye...im not toasting people)
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TomServo69
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Post by TomServo69 on Apr 19, 2004 12:39:32 GMT -5
I don't know about all of the countries you've mentioned, but I do know that Spain, and Brazil, have many problems, I have friends from Brazil, and they're always concerend about how people don't seem to realy care about their system, theyd rather have a different one. In spain I've seen people on serious discussions taling about how the country would be better off with a dictator, that "spain isn't prepared for democracy" less that 37 percent of people vote here. anyways that's why I say this, from the countries that I personnally have experianced (which isn't many i know) democracy works better when it's been fought for. You know, this is kinda funny. I agree with you on your point, but, as I was reading this, I just happened to be looking over some historical charts. (Yeah, us history people are weird like that). I found some interesting numbers on what percentage of Americans have voted throughout history. While this chart doesn't have the 2000 election in it (it's a history book, come on) it does have these interesting numbers. 1824- John Quincy Adams v. Andrew Jackson v. Henry Clay- Pretty important time, huh? Yeah, only a 26.9% voter participation. 1948- Harry Truman v. Thomas Dewey- Hey, Truman dropped the bomb!- Only a 53 % voter participation 1996- Bill Clinton v. Bob Dole v. Ross Perot - Did we really need more Clinton? Well - only 49% of America thought that we did. Now, granted these numbers aren't par, but, dig this. Between the election of 1840 and 1900, the average voter participation was well above 80%. Between the election of 1920 and present day, no election has had particpation above 65%. The most being 64% in the 1960 election between JFK and Nixon. So, what's happening? Do people care less? Do they deserve democracy? Are people really taking the sentiment of "My vote won't count anyways!" to heart? Hmmmmmm, things to ponder, Servo
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yousonuva
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Post by yousonuva on Apr 19, 2004 12:48:03 GMT -5
You got a point there TS69. No one should vote, it's useless and makes you look dumb.........that was your point, right Tom?
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Post by Mr. Atari on Apr 19, 2004 13:00:47 GMT -5
Don't forget to adjust that total for voters who were dead and those who voted twice.
Thank you Mayor Daley and Joe Kennedy.
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TomServo69
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Post by TomServo69 on Apr 19, 2004 13:02:37 GMT -5
You got a point there TS69. No one should vote, it's useless and makes you look dumb.........that was your point, right Tom? I'm taking this as sarcasm, but, just because this is a serious thread, I'm going to answer this. What I'm saying is that, hey, look at all the bitching people do. And then look at the numbers. There is no such thing as majority rule anymore due to the fact that a majority of people aren't even voting. It's kinda ridiculous. It's just amazing to me how people rag this country and then don't even try to change it. That was the point I was hinting at, I just wanted to know your guys opinions. Plus, I was trying to show the relation between Mary T.'s statement about voter participation elsewhere and our own voter participation. Servo
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Post by Mr. Atari on Apr 19, 2004 13:05:31 GMT -5
Oh, but Servo-
Complaining is so much easier than doing other things...
...like thinking.
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TomServo69
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Post by TomServo69 on Apr 19, 2004 13:11:12 GMT -5
Oh, but Servo- Complaining is so much easier than doing other things... ...like thinking. LMAO!!! Of course. Talk is always much easier than action. Especially when it comes to this country. People LOVE to complain and never do anything. Like think, Servo
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yousonuva
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Post by yousonuva on Apr 19, 2004 13:13:28 GMT -5
I'm taking this as sarcasm good. You had me worried there for a minute.
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TomServo69
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Post by TomServo69 on Apr 19, 2004 13:29:37 GMT -5
Don't forget to adjust that total for voters who were dead and those who voted twice. Thank you Mayor Daley and Joe Kennedy. Oh yeah, I forgot all about that. And we can't forget those people who voted for Kennedy just because he "looked better" than Nixon. Servo
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Post by servosoxfan on Apr 19, 2004 15:24:56 GMT -5
What do you guys think about a mandatory voting law. This of course would not take away your right to abstain. On election day you go to a voting station and either place a vote for a cadidate or check a box listed as abstain. They have this in Australia as well as Thailand (i think) and it works perfectly well. We already have mandatory filings such as draft registration for males, taxes for all, and social security for seniors. This would seem to combat laziness while protecting the peoples right not to care.
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TomServo69
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Post by TomServo69 on Apr 19, 2004 15:43:42 GMT -5
What do you guys think about a mandatory voting law. This of course would not take away your right to abstain. On election day you go to a voting station and either place a vote for a cadidate or check a box listed as abstain. They have this in Australia as well as Thailand (i think) and it works perfectly well. We already have mandatory filings such as draft registration for males, taxes for all, and social security for seniors. This would seem to combat laziness while protecting the peoples right not to care. Seems like an idea to me, but, only do it for those who are registered to vote. I mean, really, if you went through the trouble of registering then, get off your ass and vote. If you didn't register, well, you'll be issued a card that revokes your right to bitch about the government and the policies that get voted on. But, one question, what would you do to the people who just didn't show up? I say, take their names off the list and mail them a card. My two cents, Servo
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