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Post by Diet Kolos on Oct 25, 2023 20:55:59 GMT -5
Don't get mad at us for not understanding the difference and not catching those subtleties.
Like I literally just said, I never expected the GPlex to be remotely self-sufficient for future seasons and that new campaigns would happen. This was the rare time my natural pessimism was justified.
Get mad at all the former backers online who misunderstood and are upset now. I'm just reporting what I see. This isn't an US problem this time, sorry.
...I also seem to recall that I suggested in one of those many many pages that they would be wise to skip Kickstarter and its fees for another campaign if they ever needed to. And that the GPlex could play that role in future fundraisers (which it really should be this time, if you think about it). But that seems like an unimportant nitpick...
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Post by kracker on Oct 25, 2023 21:07:12 GMT -5
uh.. yea Kolos, so did I. I also said they shouldn't have to use Kickstarter anymore. In fact, Joel brought up the future fundraiser almost a year ago and then people here went off about how its another Kickstarter and I had to point out, he mentioned a fundraiser which is not necessarily a Kickstarter. But yeah not their fault they misunderstood and got all upset about that, right 9_9
And once again, GPlex, MST3K.com, what's the huge difference really?
Besides the fact that they are doing it fundraise style instead of the subscription, partly so we dont have to pay for Gizmoplex subscriptions this year, at all, and still be able to watch all our content.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Oct 25, 2023 22:15:29 GMT -5
Kracker, you were one of the loudest voices here about how the Gizmoplex would be self sustaining in spite of the math some of us did to show you how impossible that goal was with the numbers NuMST had. Again and again you posted how they were making so much money, how they were going to get all this support from fans who didn't contribute to the Kickstarter, even about how they were OF COURSE working on Season 14 with all the leftover money and the funds rolling in as Season 13 was premiering. Have you forgotten all those posts? You weren't saying they weren't going to use Kickstarter anymore because they were going to fundraise themselves, you said they wouldn't NEED to fundraise again but they would do it anyway just to make the option of pre-subscriptions available.
Like Diet Kolos, I've seen the comments from all the backers who genuinely believed the Gizmoplex would become self-supporting because that's what NuMST said they wanted to happen. The backers were told that the Gizmoplex was successful over and over again by NuMST, by the other fans - why wouldn't they believe that it was meeting that hope, that expressed goal, since it was successful? It's not their fault. They did everything they were asked to do, and now they find out that they have to do more, again and again and again. A lot of fans are fine with that, but I truly feel for the ones who are let down, who are thinking twice, who are walking away. It's a hard thing to lose trust.
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Post by BoB3K on Oct 25, 2023 23:02:49 GMT -5
A slight side-meta topic that I find interesting-- So, this MST3K old-timers forum definitely skews pessimistic on nu MST3K (at least post season 11 coming out); that's a pretty established fact for years now. So, if a member were to come in and constantly argue (almost to the point of belittling and put-downs) with the other members as being so anti-nu-mst3k fans, you'd really have to say that they're the ones being the contrarian of the forum, wouldn't you.
Having said that, I love MST3K, but don't care too much for NuMST3K, but I like discussing stuff on forums, so I'm glad we're here with something to discuss.
...
... And yes, in the 2nd KS, it was all but avowed with great hand waves of hype that the glorious new site known as the Gizmoplex would propel modern MST3K onward, barreling ahead for years to come.
Oh, also -- "(unlike the watch party function that never happened)" -- Really? I would say, that was actually pushed just as much as any future funding stuff. A lot of people seemed really excited about it.
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Post by kracker on Oct 25, 2023 23:09:29 GMT -5
Kracker, you were one of the loudest voices here about how the Gizmoplex would be self sustaining in spite of the math some of us did to show you how impossible that goal was with the numbers NuMST had. Again and again you posted how they were making so much money, how they were going to get all this support from fans who didn't contribute to the Kickstarter, even about how they were OF COURSE working on Season 14 with all the leftover money and the funds rolling in as Season 13 was premiering. Have you forgotten all those posts? You weren't saying they weren't going to use Kickstarter anymore because they were going to fundraise themselves, you said they wouldn't NEED to fundraise again but they would do it anyway just to make the option of pre-subscriptions available. Like Diet Kolos, I've seen the comments from all the backers who genuinely believed the Gizmoplex would become self-supporting because that's what NuMST said they wanted to happen. The backers were told that the Gizmoplex was successful over and over again by NuMST, by the other fans - why wouldn't they believe that it was meeting that hope, that expressed goal, since it was successful? It's not their fault. They did everything they were asked to do, and now they find out that they have to do more, again and again and again. A lot of fans are fine with that, but I truly feel for the ones who are let down, who are thinking twice, who are walking away. It's a hard thing to lose trust. No, I didn't forget all those posts. Have you? Because that's not what I said. I constantly said that was what the idea was or what the plan was, as stated by Joel. I never claimed they were making so much money as if I somehow had access to their accounting I didn't deliver any math. And quite frankly neither did you, you just simply speculated they wouldn't get any new subscribers or money and I speculated what was possible based on what we knew. That's pretty much all we are doing here in that regard, speculating, not making any promises on behalf of Joel somehow. And your statement that boils down to "you didn't say they were going to fundraise themselves. you said they would fundraise anyway" doesn't make sense. There's a lot to unpack there, but its the perfect example how someone can say something, and you get to misunderstand it however you want, and then they are responsible for it somehow. The backers did everything they were asked to do and got what was promised. If you took "we want this happen in the future" as a promise that it genuinely would happen, which judging by that Reddit isnt this huge widespread consensus anyway, I don't what to tell you. Look within, because it wasn't part of the fundraising deal. Futhermore, if you expected it to happen despite them not taking re-subscriptions or even subscriptions at all, once again, I don't know what to tell you. Now if we were continuing to pay subscription money then you'd have reason to be upset but we haven't paid a dime beyond what the Gizmoplex promised, paid for and delivered. Seriously, It's a ridiculous statement " OMG We paid for Season 13 and the Gizmoplex. We got Season 13 and the Gizmoplex. Now you're telling me we have to PAY for a Season 14? We're just finding out we have to do more, again and again and again arent' we?" "Self-sustaining" doesn't mean you never be asked to pay for episodes again, it doesn't even mean youd never be asked to pay for the season of episodes upfront via the Season Pass ever again, which btw was part of the plan and what we expected.
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Post by kracker on Oct 26, 2023 1:31:35 GMT -5
Don't get mad at us for not understanding the difference and not catching those subtleties. Get mad at all the former backers online who misunderstood and are upset now. I'm just reporting what I see. This isn't an US problem this time, sorry. btw there's just not a lot of that on Reddit as you claim. It is mainly that "US" problem. Reading through that subreddit, There's a few of people who admit they were confused about it but nothing on the level of "upset". Just lots of good questions and answers, refreshing really. over 95% positive and supportive comments. And a lot of them BEFORE they would find out it would be direct through the website, not Kickstarter. Amazing that Reddit of all places, feels like a magical land of sunshine compared to this place. Here's my favorite of one of comments you might be citing: "when I donated to the very first Kickstarter, my thought process was that I was helping to relaunch this show in a way that would be self sustaining, not that I would repeatedly be asked for money."
Seriously, What the hell do you think a subscription service does? Like I literally just said, I never expected the GPlex to be remotely self-sufficient for future seasons and that new campaigns would happen. This was the rare time my natural pessimism was justified. Yeah, We pretty much predicted there would be a new campaign in the form of some kind of pledge drive to support Season 14 where we could reup on our Season Passes. And Joel confirmed there would be one about a year ago. I just didn't want them to do another Kickstarter.
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Post by comedyc on Oct 26, 2023 5:11:01 GMT -5
I just look at it as renewing my season pass. I don't care how they ask me for the money for new episodes, whether it be crowd source or ordered from their site. I'm giving it to them either way. It's good to hear them speak of future crowd sourcing. That hopefully means quicker turnaround, if every year and a half or so another campaign launches. I give The Mads way more money than I'm giving this campaign. I look at it as a bargain.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Oct 26, 2023 6:03:06 GMT -5
Well it would be one thing if it was just as simple as renewing the season pass for $85, but they need quite a bit more money than just renewing the season pass, evidently.
Season pass cost $85. According to their new numbers of what they need to fund a full season 14 they would need every backer to back at an average cost of $202. Even 6 episodes would cost the average backer ~$133 bucks.
Perhaps if they had approached this as a mass "Hey everyone, its time to renew your season pass at a cost of $85. It'll only be enough to fund 3 or 4 episodes, but if you want more you can at the same time buy some extras in this fundraiser." it would have avoided some of the burnout we're seeing amongst a portion of the fans.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Oct 26, 2023 6:09:56 GMT -5
Also, when they announced this campaign I told myself I wouldn't be getting into the same mindless back and forth with certain people over minutiae and endless streams of nonsense arguments. I apologize for furthering any needless bickering. I'm here to discuss and analyze and I'm really not interested in these peeing contests. I had enough of that in the last KS with that dudehitscar person.
So I'm going to be taking a more nuanced "I don't care, moving on" approach in the season 14 threads.
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Post by kracker on Oct 26, 2023 6:46:23 GMT -5
Well it would be one thing if it was just as simple as renewing the season pass for $85, but they need quite a bit more money than just renewing the season pass, evidently. Season pass cost $85. According to their new numbers of what they need to fund a full season 14 they would need every backer to back at an average cost of $202. Even 6 episodes would cost the average backer ~$133 bucks. Perhaps if they had approached this as a mass "Hey everyone, its time to renew your season pass at a cost of $85. It'll only be enough to fund 3 or 4 episodes, but if you want more you can at the same time buy some extras in this fundraiser." it would have avoided some of the burnout we're seeing amongst a portion of the fans. That's my main concern but no one is talking about it. Those are the questions people should be asking, even though Joel said he'd get into the budget details later. But the budget isn't just a little higher, its a LOT HIGHER, despite no Kickstarter overhead, no having to build the Gizmoplex and less physical rewards to produce. And with way less rewards and incentives, not to mention the Season Pass and Blurays are remaining the SAME price, I don't see how they see they can hit the 7.4. If it was 5.5 for the full season like it was for the previous two KS, it wouldn't be a problem. Inflation ain't that bad, they buying a huge warehouse building downtown or something? Also despite way less physical rewards to produce and manage, Rewards and Support is taking up more out of their budget chart, almost a third, so either the chart is wrong or their math is wrong. I dont see them spending a million just to produce shirts and stickers.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Oct 26, 2023 7:16:06 GMT -5
Those are EXCELLENT points. Now that you mention it, I don't understand their math this time, either.
Maybe they ARE buying a permanent studio space. Because otherwise, without KS fees and drastically reduced reward manufacture/shipping costs...what IS all that extra money for? Even with inflation, without those extra costs they're avoiding this time, there should be a decent % of the budget freed up for pure production expenditures, or just building up savings.
Perhaps the rewards clusterfudge from the prior KS put them into debt and part of this money is going toward paying off THAT.
I'd be very interested to see the nitty gritty of their budget.
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Post by kracker on Oct 26, 2023 7:39:18 GMT -5
With nearly 25% going towards Rewards and Support, they were budgeted for a reward clusterfudge. Everyone paid their shipping, How would they be in that much debt?
If a permanent studio space was taking that much of the budget, way more than the Gizmoplex, you'd think that would be part of the campaign headline: Lets Make Season 14 and Build MST3K Studios. Think people would find the sound of that more exciting than a Gizmoplex.
Here's another to thing to add on: they are the ones who know how many subscribers the Gizmoplex has, so wouldn't they be able to do the math on how much they would be getting from re-subscribers and see if the 7.4 was obtainable, they would have had to.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Oct 26, 2023 7:57:16 GMT -5
So in the original video posted, Matt quoted the initial goal at a MUCH lower price, 3.7 million. Joel explained the discrepancy as that they did their math wrong and didn't factor everything in.
3.7 vs 4.8 Where did that extra 1.1 million come from? What's it for?
-At 4.8 million, avg per episode total cost is 800k per episode (520k solely for episode production). -At the original 3.7 for 6, avg per was 616k (400k production costs). -At 6.1 for 9, avg total is 677k per (440k prod cost). -At 7.4 for 12, avg is 616k per (400k prod cost)
So that revised 4.8 for 6 is WAYYY the heck out of whack with the rest. There's gotta be some big ticket item or cost they factored in at the last minute. Wish we knew what.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Oct 26, 2023 8:00:37 GMT -5
Makes me think the middle tier for 9 episodes used to be 5.5 million, also. To bring it back in line with what was seemingly the original 616/400 total cost/production cost per episode split.
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Post by kracker on Oct 26, 2023 8:46:10 GMT -5
Yeah, since they got the final goal 7.4 correct in the original video, it probably was a math error. I was going to ask was how they could have made such a gross error come showtime. Wouldn't have they been planning this out for months? Like you said, maybe some big ticket item maybe that's getting announced but didn't have time to figure out because Tuesday was the hard date for the campaign launch since they want the final push to land on Turkey Day. Until then, that 7.4 number is pretty worrying.
That 3.7 is pretty close to the original 3.3 for the 6 episodes. And you said we dont know what the original middle tier was exactly? Stand to reason it would be also close to the original middle tier which was 4.4.
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