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Post by RedTom on Jan 2, 2024 8:49:15 GMT -5
A big part of today's trend is "out with the old, in with the new", that's literally all I have for you. Star Wars tried it, failed, Marvel tried it, failed and now MST3K has replaced their title sequences, tunnel sequence, basic formula and now we're seeing the result. I'm afraid the latter is pretty true, he's basically killed the show. I'm going to guess that no network is willing to take the risk now with all of the horrible stuff going on with streaming in general. If an actual Cable Network like TV Land or something like that takes it up, I can't imagine they'll be too interested in new shows, more the reruns that are still making some semblance of a profit. Either way I think about it, it's really not looking like we're going to be getting another season and I think that's actually a good thing, seeing where the show was headed in the vain of Disney and [insert basically any studio screwing up really big right now, as there are ridiculous amounts to choose from]. Honestly, I think we're better for sticking with the classics while also hitching along with Rifftrax.
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Post by slainmonkey on Jan 2, 2024 9:44:20 GMT -5
I dunno, this argument is all a little “go woke, go broke” to me, and I don’t subscribe to that nonsense. And outside maybe renaming Gypsy “GPC”, I don’t think that argument holds much water. I feel far more worrisome is the fact that in order to compensate for the fact MST3K has compromised on a production front due to covid, he made some baffling creative decisions that made the show far more gimmicky. While I liked the 3D gimmick for The Mask (one of the handful of episodes I actually liked), I feel most of them were just incredibly clumsy. I was initially onboard for the multiple host idea, but I feel it was pretty botched in execution. It was just a bunch of poorly realised gimmicks thrown at the show, in the hopes of hiding the fact the show’s production had taken a massive hit….but it all contributed to make the show lose its soul.
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Post by RedTom on Jan 2, 2024 11:57:20 GMT -5
It's not even the Go Woke Go Broke! They are literally changing EVERYTHING and yeah that includes the GPC thing but it also includes story beats, villain hierarchy, Host relations and everything. Yeah, it's really not our fault that a lot of it has the earmarks of the Woke/Broke argument because it fell into that stipulation so readily.
I am going to put that crap aside because I'm tired of hearing it as well. I make the Star Wars, Marvel and Disney argument, not because of the politics but because of the bastardizing and the streamlining (LITERALLY) of their products from TV Shows and movies into the category of nothing but CONTENT. MST3K's riffing itself has taken a huge, MASSIVE hit because of their hiring subpar actors in lead roles. Look at the RIFFING in this season, it is ALL OVER THE PLACE because it's obvious that their material is severely lacking from seemingly every angle. I kind of wish I could run a few clips of the show from youtube but I couldn't find any prime examples as such for show.
I can tell you, however, that The Christmas Dragon, I swear, I wasn't even in a bad mood and I was ready to give it the fairest of the chances. I maybe laughed.... 3 times a scene. This was a "pfft" a chuckle and a good little laugh here and there. Then there was the cringeworthy elements of the movie that really started to hit hard because the riffing was just... there! When you have to pay more attention to the movie because it's more entertaining than the jokes, something is wrong. I could NOT watch the host segments. Period. The host segments are dead to me at this point. Even if it's Jonah and Joel, the writing is so awkward! The voices for the bots are AWFUL!
This was really strange because I actually enjoyed the Santo movie in the first of it. I also enjoyed Dr. Mordrid and Munchie! That's it, though! I was SO looking forward to Batgirl but it was soooooo boring. Then Demon Squad and Beyond Atlantis came on and I straight up quit the season for like 4 months after that. I still haven't fully finished it even though I've gone back to watch a few of the episodes I missed but I'm obviously in no hurry.
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Post by slainmonkey on Jan 2, 2024 12:26:45 GMT -5
I feel you hated it more then I did, however if the show does ever get continued, I do feel like Joel shouldn’t be left completely to his own devices anymore. I feel like he’s increasingly losing sight of the things that made the show work. He needs to be reigned in if the show is to ever thrive again…otherwise he will only further continue to alienate a fanbase that was so loyal, they funded 2 whole seasons of the show from whatever money they could scrounge up. Honestly it was a little much that Joel thought thought he endlessly fund the show indefinitely on crowdfunding. I predicted this very scenario during the second kickstarter, I feel the 3rd crowdfunding campaign only further hurt the good will for most fans.
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Post by BoB3K on Jan 2, 2024 13:17:12 GMT -5
Why replace the tunnel sequence though? Literally that just spent more money to remake it, but looking worse. You must have missed the 5 dozen post argument in the other thread. They weren't allowed to use the Season 11/12 hallway sequence because netflix owns it and wouldn't let them use it.
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Post by intonyeon on Jan 2, 2024 14:52:05 GMT -5
What gets to me most is this: Has MST3K always been an unprofitable show after a certain point? After all, Comedy Central stopped renewing the rights to movies and so did Sci-Fi. At some point did it become just unwanted?
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Post by RedTom on Jan 2, 2024 15:00:58 GMT -5
What gets to me most is this: Has MST3K always been an unprofitable show after a certain point? After all, Comedy Central stopped renewing the rights to movies and so did Sci-Fi. At some point did it become just unwanted? Unwanted is kind of a strong word, but let's go with "it had its time and the world more or less moved on". The success of the crowdfunding showed that we wanted more of it, but it's obvious, from its very timid fan reaction compared to the old show, that there just wasn't a lot of demand for it. This was largely due to there being so much more with Rifftrax, who was still there and still constantly doing great stuff. Then there was the fact that we still had around 200 episodes of the old show already. Then they changed some things with 11 and 12 that a lot of people didn't like. More and more, it's just proving to be unsustainable in today's atmosphere. I'm absolutely sure there's a lot more to it with people losing faith in Joel, the constant times we're told one thing and obviously given another, and the fact that they're changing the brand completely. It's all just adding up to look not-so-good. It took me a long time to come to grips with it but I think this REALLY is for the best. I don't mean that in a condescending way or in a way where I'm still all that angry at Joel. It's probably best if we just let it end.
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Post by slainmonkey on Jan 2, 2024 15:20:18 GMT -5
Ultimately though, it’s not our choice as to if the show ends now. While it might be wise to let go, Joel is clearly still looking for a means to bring it back (whether or not he succeeds is another question).
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Post by BoB3K on Jan 2, 2024 16:22:51 GMT -5
Ultimately though, it’s not our choice as to if the show ends now. While it might be wise to let go, Joel is clearly still looking for a means to bring it back (whether or not he succeeds is another question). I don't know if this is true the way Joel phoned in the crowdfunder. It could be more that Matt and some of the others at alterversal or whatever want to keep it going more than Joel.
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Post by slainmonkey on Jan 2, 2024 16:44:44 GMT -5
Ultimately though, it’s not our choice as to if the show ends now. While it might be wise to let go, Joel is clearly still looking for a means to bring it back (whether or not he succeeds is another question). I don't know if this is true the way Joel phoned in the crowdfunder. It could be more that Matt and some of the others at alterversal or whatever want to keep it going more than Joel. That, or Joel Just took the previous two successes with kickstarter for granted.
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Post by ds_36 on Jan 2, 2024 17:55:30 GMT -5
Does Joel even know what he wants? His being satiated comment makes me feel like he's viewing this as a job and will continue if his bosses want him to.
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Post by mylungswereaching on Jan 2, 2024 18:57:55 GMT -5
I've been watching MST3k since season 1. I personally don't care about the sets, its the comedy. In the original show, the 5 on screen actors wrote the show. Each character had their own personality. Joel/Mike, Tom Servo and Crow had distinct personalities. When the actor changed, the personality of the character changed. In the Netflix episodes, it felt like they wrote a whole bunch of jokes, randomly assigned them to characters and had hired actors read them in one take. Some hit and a lot missed badly. I haven't seen the new eps but I assume that trend continued.
IMO MST3k is more a stand up performance then a scripted comedy. You need a flow to the jokes for it to work at its best.
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Post by RedTom on Jan 2, 2024 19:24:48 GMT -5
I've been watching MST3k since season 1. I personally don't care about the sets, its the comedy. In the original show, the 5 on screen actors wrote the show. Each character had their own personality. Joel/Mike, Tom Servo and Crow had distinct personalities. When the actor changed, the personality of the character changed. In the Netflix episodes, it felt like they wrote a whole bunch of jokes, randomly assigned them to characters and had hired actors read them in one take. Some hit and a lot missed badly. I haven't seen the new eps but I assume that trend continued. IMO MST3k is more a stand up performance then a scripted comedy. You need a flow to the jokes for it to work at its best. Very well put. I agree whole heartedly. Their jokes stopped being a pointed statement of each other's characteristics. If you'll notice, they'll interrupt the order of who says the joke in favor of who can say that one joke better than the other. Sometimes, this will give one character more jokes than the others because of the delivery it needs. This new show will not do that because now everyone needs to be included and no one can be short changed. There is a reason why this is considered one of the big deaths of comedy. This show, especially.
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Post by mylungswereaching on Jan 2, 2024 22:23:12 GMT -5
I've been watching MST3k since season 1. I personally don't care about the sets, its the comedy. In the original show, the 5 on screen actors wrote the show. Each character had their own personality. Joel/Mike, Tom Servo and Crow had distinct personalities. When the actor changed, the personality of the character changed. In the Netflix episodes, it felt like they wrote a whole bunch of jokes, randomly assigned them to characters and had hired actors read them in one take. Some hit and a lot missed badly. I haven't seen the new eps but I assume that trend continued. IMO MST3k is more a stand up performance then a scripted comedy. You need a flow to the jokes for it to work at its best. Very well put. I agree whole heartedly. Their jokes stopped being a pointed statement of each other's characteristics. If you'll notice, they'll interrupt the order of who says the joke in favor of who can say that one joke better than the other. Sometimes, this will give one character more jokes than the others because of the delivery it needs. This new show will not do that because now everyone needs to be included and no one can be short changed. There is a reason why this is considered one of the big deaths of comedy. This show, especially. I don't consider the problem wokeness, I look at it as corporate comedy. Comedy by committee where the people making the decisions decide by stats like joke per minute but have no feel for comedy. "We need X percent of our jokes aimed at demographic ABC and Y percentage at demographic DEF. Our studies say we need at least 10 jokes that mention (current topic). We also need 4 jokes about cats. people like cats..."
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Post by RedTom on Jan 2, 2024 23:46:00 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what angle you view the problem from, it's very present. It's obvious that not everyone in the writer's room belonged there. It really sounds like there were one, maybe two voices in there shooting down any good ideas and offering alternatives that worked better with their non-offensive, sterile humor that pleases the "widest demographic" rather than challenges our senses of humor. Call the problem what you will, it's basically a very clear problem that was present throughout this latest season, as it was far more vague with Season 11.
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