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Post by losingmydignity on Oct 19, 2005 0:58:23 GMT -5
Time for me to drag out my Joike joke....
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Post by maxdrive on Oct 19, 2005 1:27:04 GMT -5
Id have to say mike, only because I dont think i seen any Joel epps of mst3k yet. I am looking forward to geting some on dvd though
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Post by mummifiedstalin on Oct 19, 2005 8:17:20 GMT -5
Id have to say mike, only because I dont think i seen any Joel epps of mst3k yet. I am looking forward to geting some on dvd though <sharp shocked intake of breath> I know I'm all old school and stuff, but to me, that's like saying that you like George Lazenby best as James Bond because you never saw Connery.
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Post by Skiptastic on Oct 19, 2005 8:46:32 GMT -5
My biggest reason that I can come up with for liking Joel over Mike is the way that each of them handled the "situation." I know it has to do with character integrity and "motivation"...
But when Joel was around, after the KTMA season, there was almost no discussion of him getting off the ship and back down to earth. It was all about him being bright and happy in a bad situation and being cordial to people who have ruthlessly shot you into space and are subjecting you to horrible movies. Having Joel on the ship made you not feel so downhearted about the movies you were seeing and always looking for a good side of things. And one thing that I'm not sure gets mentioned enough. Compare lighting. Joel's sets were always well lit and bright. When Mike came (especially in the Sci Fi era) everything became darker. It's a little thing, to be sure, but the mind notices these little things subconsciously.
Insert Mike. Now, again, it makes sense for his character to be completely PO'd about the situation and want to get down. But it is kind of a downer when you watch a show to laugh and some guy is in some horrible situation and is actively looking for ways to get out of it. Also, when I watch the show, I like Mike and I like Joel. It's the movies that deserve the razzing. When Mike came onto the show, he became a new target for jabs and jives, ones that the bots never would have given Joel.
All of these are character situations and it isn't anyone's fault that these things happen. But Joel was and always will be the better host in my opinion, mostly due to the situation of the actual show. VH has covered a lot of reasons outside of what was going on in the actual show. My biggest reason for liking the riffing better during the Joel era was Joel's way of riffing. Something about the way he would deliver lines made it all the better. Also, the repoire in the theater between Joel and the Bots. Crow would be the one who would do a bad joke and get his arm ripped off, while Servo was the one who would always do little "ooos" or laugh at Joel's jokes. It was actually a quite genuine tone to the relationship.
And something that I don't think can be understated is the invention exchange. At their best, they were quite hilarious little creations; at their worst, they simply took up time...but that was the key. By taking away invention exchanges, the Brains were forced to come up with another host segment that would be dominated by coming up with something funny. This is not to say that there wasn't funny stuff going on, but it's more writing that needs to be accounted for and, frankly, I'd rather watch an invention exchange that fails than some of the stuff they came up with to replace them.
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Post by mummifiedstalin on Oct 19, 2005 8:47:47 GMT -5
And something that I don't think can be understated is the invention exchange. At their best, they were quite hilarious little creations; at their worst, they simply took up time...but that was the key. By taking away invention exchanges, the Brains were forced to come up with another host segment that would be dominated by coming up with something funny. This is not to say that there wasn't funny stuff going on, but it's more writing that needs to be accounted for and, frankly, I'd rather watch an invention exchange that fails than some of the stuff they came up with to replace them. The invention exchange was Joel's baby from the beginning. It was really just an extension of his prop-comic routine. So when he left, the main impetus for it left, too.
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Post by Skiptastic on Oct 19, 2005 11:01:41 GMT -5
The invention exchange was Joel's baby from the beginning. It was really just an extension of his prop-comic routine. So when he left, the main impetus for it left, too. I'm well aware of who's baby it was...and again, it plays into the whole character difference thing...I'm just saying that the invention exchange gives Joel a great boost. I mean, the invention exchange really made certain episodes for me. 402 and "Bite me, Frodo", 212 and "If you're like me, and I know I am, ...", the Big Head/ Big Noses...I loved it.
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Post by mummifiedstalin on Oct 19, 2005 11:18:47 GMT -5
The invention exchange was Joel's baby from the beginning. It was really just an extension of his prop-comic routine. So when he left, the main impetus for it left, too. I'm well aware of who's baby it was...and again, it plays into the whole character difference thing...I'm just saying that the invention exchange gives Joel a great boost. I mean, the invention exchange really made certain episodes for me. 402 and "Bite me, Frodo", 212 and "If you're like me, and I know I am, ...", the Big Head/ Big Noses...I loved it. I agree. And I wasn't trying to argue or anything. Your point about it meaning one extra host segment to write is well-taken. When Dr. F/Frank were the focus of the extra segment (which was rare), they still worked well. But a lot of the extra Mike ones I agree fall flat.
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Post by Mitchell on Oct 19, 2005 13:05:33 GMT -5
Mike loses points on the Urkell impression alone.
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Post by Chuck on Oct 19, 2005 20:45:36 GMT -5
Well, I started watching when it first started. Joel's my favorite, but I thought Mike was the logical choice for replacement, and I like him just as much.
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Post by Phantom Engineer on Oct 19, 2005 20:49:15 GMT -5
Well, I started watching when it first started. Joel's my favorite, but I thought Mike was the logical choice for replacement, and I like him just as much. So who did you vote for?
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Post by Chuck on Oct 19, 2005 21:06:35 GMT -5
Oh, sorry. Joel.
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Post by hopesfall on Oct 20, 2005 1:30:30 GMT -5
I like them both, but I think Mike is funnier. And since it's a comedy show, I vote Mike.
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Post by El Dangeroso on Oct 25, 2005 3:45:06 GMT -5
Seeing as how Mike's supporters have been less than vocal, I offer this dissertation in his defense:
No one can dispute that the show was Joel's baby. He was the creator, after all. But Mike was the head writer. Many of the things you love about Joel can be directly credited to Mike. (Notice who wrote most of the songs, for example.)
Joel was the filter through which Mike's genius hit the screen. As the first host, Joel set a tone of relative harmlessness. The 'bots were like children. Any mean or slapstick stuff came from the Mads. But Joel rarely complained about the films. The guy was in a torture scenario and didn't seem to care - not terribly realistic. Yes, I know it's just a show and I should really just relax.
But you could say Joel was like Bugs Bunny. As often as the Mads (Elmer Fudd) would come after him, he'd smile and slyly sidestep the ambush.
Mike was like Daffy Duck. He got angry about the experiments. He got sad about the experiments. He got his beak blown off. I think that's easier to relate to.
The great credit to Mike is evident in the timing of the show. When Joel was around, the show was very slow. You'd hear flubbed lines all the time. A 'bot would start a riff, trip over a name and mumble out the punchline. The comedic timing was just... off. But close your eyes and listen to the three in the theater after Joel left. They were quicker with the jokes. You'd almost never hear a stumble.
So much of comedy is based in the timing. The funniest joke in the world is worthless if it's delivered badly. Throughout the Joel era, lots of good jokes were derailed by bad rhythm.
So I credit Mike with tightening up the pace. That's very much a writer thing.
I also credit him with changing the tone of the 'bots. I think it works better when Crow, Tom and the host are equals. Especially during the Sci Fi era, there were times when Mike got the best of both 'bots, when Crow got to slam the other two, or when Tom asserted himself atop the pile. It was very "Three Stooges."
When Joel was around, he was very paternal to his little guys. But by establishing the 'bots as childlike, I think it made them a little too simple. Again, I think that was Joel as the creator (and the filter) establishing his mark on the show.
I'm sure we all agree that the Mads trump Pearl, Bobo and Observer, but that's something I chalk up to the performers. I don't find Mary Jo funny in the least. You could have her rattling off the greatest joke on earth and it wouldn't make me laugh. I think it's her voice. And her face. Whatever. But it's definitely a strike against the Sci Fi era. I shudder to think what that group would be like if they had Joel on board.
But ultimately, I prefer Mike because I like my comedy tight, I like people to wince when they're punched (or forced to watch a bad movie) and I think the guy is a bona fide genius.
Mike writes books. Joel is a prop comic. I know which one I'm choosing.
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Post by Blackmarket Jazz on Oct 25, 2005 8:14:13 GMT -5
Well said El!!
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Post by Skiptastic on Oct 25, 2005 8:22:53 GMT -5
Oh man, too easy to refute this:
1. Yes, Mike was the head writer, and many of the jokes that makes us love Joel were written by Mike. But that's the way it is on a lot of television shows. Writers write the jokes, but they may not be the BEST FILTER of those jokes. Being a good segway from joke to audience is what makes a GOOD HOST.
2. You claim that it wasn't terribly realistic for Joel to be unhappy where he was, in the "torture scenario." Obviously you haven't seen the KTMA opening, because Joel says when you got lemons, you make lemonade. Think about it from Joel's perspective: He's sitting around, polishing switches to pay his way, being a amateur inventor in his free time, when a couple of scientists shoot him into space and make him watch bad movies. Now, he's not going to be happy about that, but consider this: he's in space with no worries about eating or breating or other science facts, he's able to create robots that have free will and can make him laugh, he's experiencing something that few other men have felt (being in space), and he now has an outlet for his invention prowess with the invention exchanges. What's there to complain about?
3. The Looney Tunes comparison is actually pretty accurate...but who does WB use when they market their product? That's right. Bugs Bunny. Making Bugs/Joel the better filter.
4. What you describe as slow, off timing I consider a more organic comedic process. Mike definitely tightened up the pace and timing, but it didn't necessarily feel as enjoyable for me. Oh, sure, I like Mike a lot, but it's the general feeling of Joel episodes that I like more. I like the simplicity of the bots as childlike, because I hate teenagers.
And, for the most part, from watching every Joel episode multiple times, the jokes they stumble on were never the best jokes. And another thing: when J&tB (Joel especially) kind of mosey into the jokes, to me, that sounds more natural. It's like Joel is your friend, sitting there watching this bad movie with you, and he doesn't just jump at the jokes, but rather eases into them. Maybe it's a Midwest thing, maybe it's just me, but that just feels more right.
I agree with you on a lot of points, the biggest one being that Mike is a bona fide genius. I believe that Mike is perhaps the funniest man on the earth at any given time. But there is a difference, a very big difference, between being funny and being a better host. I like Joel because not only does he still have the ability to get those Mike jokes out, but he changes them into his own manner and I like the way he puts it out.
And another thing (boy, I'm saying that a lot) that vanhagar made almost immediately: Yes, Mike writes books and Joel is a prop comic. But when Joel was there, you got both worlds. Once Joel left, there was a noticeable shift (made even more clear once they got to the Sci Fi era) away from organic comedy to almost entirely biting, forceful comedy. And if that's the way you like your comedy, then by all means, Mike's for you. I like a little bit of both worlds in a less brutal fashion, which is why Joel's my choice by a long shot.
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