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Post by Udvarnoky on Aug 20, 2004 18:22:00 GMT -5
Not true. Barry Lyndon is 183 minutes long, all fit on one disk. And the quality is even sharper than anything Rhino has given us. Also, my Matrix DVD has a top quality transfer with a few hours of extras on it, plus theatrical trailers. My top quality "ALiens" DVD has both the regular version of the film and the director's cut on one disk, and it still has a few extras. Rhino could easily fit 2, 3 or even 4 episodes on a disk and we'd still get the same quality. They put one per disk to make the set bigger, thus, more money for them. Same thing as the Extended Lord of the Ring sets. THey could easily fit the whole film on one disk, and the two disks of special features they could easily fit them on one disk as well. They pretend they can't so they can make it a four disk set instead of a two disk set (like the original releases). So people say: "Wow, 4 disks, this can only be God!" I'm not saying the quality would be crap, I'm just saying there are logical reasons. And it still doesn't change that it's not financially beneficial for Rhino to press more discs than they have to. BTW, love Barry Lyndon.  Don't think Rhino is giving us top quality either. There is a noticable difference between the superb quality of their single releases and the somewhat grainy quality of their boxed set releases. I'm actually disappointed with ALL Rhino's transfers period. They're better than broadcast eps, but they're not to the level that I think they should be. (It's not just MST3K- check all of Rhino's DVDs.) But there's more reason to buy from rhino than just the quality...like supporting the show. As far as the boxed sets being worse than the single-disc releases, I disagree. I think they're all at the same level. The grain is to be expected from the fact that MST3K is a low-budget TV series. What pisses me off is the pixellation and constant lack of detail/definition that all of Rhino's disc have - the digital artifacts that could have been prevented. It's really distracting. |
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Post by vanhagar3000 on Aug 20, 2004 18:36:21 GMT -5
Maybe if they stopped worrying about THEIR benefit, and started thinking about the CUSTOMER'S benefit, MST fans wouldn't have the ever growing hate fro Rhino. Exactly, public business shouldn't be about your benefits, it should be about the consumer's. I understand most business are underhanded and sleazy, but Rhino is far worse than anyone else by comparison. Like Forrest said about South Park and Barry Lydon. And as I said about A PREVIOUS MST3K RELEASE. They've done it before, why can't they do it again? |
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Post by Jazzman99 on Aug 20, 2004 18:59:24 GMT -5
South Park is also a currently-airing show with a huge fan base, new episodes several times a year, a successful merchandising program, and some of the highest cultural visibility of any TV series of the last couple decades. Plus the average episode is less than a quarter the length of an MST episode. Plus since it consists of cheap animation it's easy to cram a lot of episodes onto a disc. Plus they don't even have to *think* about whether they have to negotiate the rights to anything.
MST is a show that hasn't been in production for five years, has what amounts to a cult of few (though very loyal) fans (many of whom already have all the episodes), can involve a tangle of legal rights, bears a number of technical challenges due to the different types of images and film used, and has individual episodes of rather unwieldy length by the standards of TV-on-DVD sales. You're comparing two wildly different beasts.
"Public business shouldn't be about your benefit, it should be about the consumer'"? News to many an MBA, I should think. It's been said before but it bears repeating: Rhino is in business to make a profit, not to satisfy every daydream desire of every potential customer in the world. That doesn't mean they don't care about their level of customer satisfation at all, or that they don't take pride or interest in what they do. It just means we, as fans, need to be realistic in our expectations.
Conceive, for a moment, of trying to put together a box set of, say, Season 4 of MST. 24 episodes--SIX TIMES as many as the current box sets contain. Thus six times as long to prepare, six times as many prints to review, six times the technical issues, six times everything. At least 12 discs--and you can't say it should be less, because that would mean cutting into video quality, and the fnas don't want that. The fans want intros and bonus features and uncut versions and trailers, all of which takes up even more disc space. What do you suppose the final list price for such a set would be? How many would they sell, compared to how many they sell of the current format? Where's their incentive?
We should hold Rhino to high standards; we should ask that they produce the best-looking discs possible, that they provide new ones whenever possible, that they repsond to fan concerns and desires, that they not rip us off with Manos-type situations. Sometimes they do not live up to these expectations; much of the time, as far as I can tell, they do. New MST discs are now coming out several times a year, and for the most part they are quality product. I can't imagine any company taking more of an interest in MST than Rhino does. The idea that they couldn't be any worse seems wildly overblown.
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Post by rusty0918 on Aug 20, 2004 19:33:52 GMT -5
Geez, all the whining about quality. Come on, this isn't George Lucas for crying out loud!
I'm pleased with the DVD releases so far. Yeah, 518 doesn't have the stinger, but I don't mind.
Jazzman99, you've got a point. These eps are each about 90-100 minutes long, twice as much as your typical primetime TV show. I mean, it really takes Rhino some time to get these released, not to mention the legal issues.
And guys, instead of whining to Rhino why you have to buy another Manos to go with SCCTM, perhaps you should petition to get it released with Volume 7. That would seem like a better choice.
I swear to you, if you keep this up, Rhino might be releasing any more MST3K eps for you.
Yeah I may be disappointed by some of the releases, and let me tell you something, and even I fail this a lot. You can't get your way all the time. Yeah, sure, there are quite a great many good MST3K eps that haven't been released yet. You just have to be patient.
I think Rhino is doing a fine job.
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Post by vanhagar3000 on Aug 20, 2004 19:43:42 GMT -5
I swear to you, if you keep this up, Rhino might be releasing any more MST3K eps for you. Rhino is releasing MST3K for ME, they are releasing MST3K for MONEY! |
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Post by vanhagar3000 on Aug 20, 2004 19:55:03 GMT -5
South Park is also a currently-airing show with a huge fan base, new episodes several times a year, a successful merchandising program, and some of the highest cultural visibility of any TV series of the last couple decades. Plus the average episode is less than a quarter the length of an MST episode. Plus since it consists of cheap animation it's easy to cram a lot of episodes onto a disc. Plus they don't even have to *think* about whether they have to negotiate the rights to anything. MST is a show that hasn't been in production for five years, has what amounts to a cult of few (though very loyal) fans (many of whom already have all the episodes), can involve a tangle of legal rights, bears a number of technical challenges due to the different types of images and film used, and has individual episodes of rather unwieldy length by the standards of TV-on-DVD sales. You're comparing two wildly different beasts. Okay, don’t talk about negotiating anything as far as MST3K is concerned either. We’ve establish pretty well that there is a $hitload of episode they could release for free. Also, South Park is animated, yes, and it is indeed a quarter of what a MST3K episode is, but they released more than 4 eps per disc and that’s the point. Of course, he forgets to mention that they did a similar transfer to a live action, semi-obscure Kubrick film. "Public business shouldn't be about your benefit, it should be about the consumer'"? News to many an MBA, I should think. It's been said before but it bears repeating: Rhino is in business to make a profit, not to satisfy every daydream desire of every potential customer in the world. That doesn't mean they don't care about their level of customer satisfation at all, or that they don't take pride or interest in what they do. It just means we, as fans, need to be realistic in our expectations.  WOW! I never knew that, thank you mister. The whole time I thought Rhino was here to suck our co...I think you get the idea. I’m completely aware Rhino is a BUSINESS. But, other BUSINESSES do the same thing, and these other BUSINESSES still make money doing the same thing. Yes, I do know MST3K is a different beast, but not that different. What I have in mind is INCREDIBLY REALISTIC. Other shows are getting the same treatment. Hell this show GOT THE SAME treatment before. If we go on what Rhino can do, I KNOW they can release two episodes per disc, I KNOW they can release two sided discs. They’ve done it before, with MST3K. Plus it’s not going to be hard for Rhino to get some six disc box holders. What I’m saying is completely within Rhino’s capability. Rhino is forgetting while it maybe an obscure show, it has MANY episodes and long episodes. It needs to squeeze in as many as possible. Conceive, for a moment, of trying to put together a box set of, say, Season 4 of MST. 24 episodes--SIX TIMES as many as the current box sets contain. Thus six times as long to prepare, six times as many prints to review, six times the technical issues, six times everything. At least 12 discs--and you can't say it should be less, because that would mean cutting into video quality, and the fnas don't want that. The fans want intros and bonus features and uncut versions and trailers, all of which takes up even more disc space. What do you suppose the final list price for such a set would be? How many would they sell, compared to how many they sell of the current format? Where's their incentive? Six discs. If they had 4 episodes per side- 2 episode per side, 2 sides. RHINO HAS DONE IT BEFORE! THIS IS WITHIN RHINO’S CAPABILITY! Also, we were talking hypothetically before and assumed Rhino would not have extra features like they don’t seem to now. Yes, I do realize that it would probably be 12 episodes if they included the uncut version. But the other stuff is so small it won’t matter that much to the quality. We should hold Rhino to high standards; we should ask that they produce the best-looking discs possible, that they provide new ones whenever possible, that they repsond to fan concerns and desires, that they not rip us off with Manos-type situations. Sometimes they do not live up to these expectations; much of the time, as far as I can tell, they do. New MST discs are now coming out several times a year, and for the most part they are quality product. I can't imagine any company taking more of an interest in MST than Rhino does. The idea that they couldn't be any worse seems wildly overblown. I could easily see other companies taking an interest in MST3K. Shout! Factory is one that we’ve talked about many times. Of course, they aren’t the worst, but I think what people mean is that to be any worse would be almost cartoonishly evil. All they need a is a Snidely Whiplash like moustache to complete the look. |
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Post by Jazzman99 on Aug 20, 2004 20:15:05 GMT -5
Fine. Let's imagine for a moment that they can get four episodes on a disc. Let's further imagine that this results in no loss of video quality. So, a 24-episode, six disc set. How much do you imagine it would cost? Who would buy it? Only the die-hard fanatics--and under Rhino's current system, they already have us, plus they can hope to make sales to the occasional casual fan or curious newbie. The odds that season sets would sell well enough for all ten to come out are vanishingly small.
MST IS a different beast, and it IS different enough that the models that work for other shows probably won't work for it. Even other shows that have similar, cult followings are different, because they're usually heavily plot-oriented and benefit from being seen in order. Season sets make sense for such shows. What little semblence of continuing plot there is in MST is so loose and farcical that any single episode makes perfect sense by itself.
I just don't see what the huge problem is with the current system. We're getting many episodes a year, from a variety of seasons (what if Rhino puts out nothing in 2005 but a Season 4 boxset, and I prefer Mike?). The only concrete complaints I've heard are a poor transfer on Merlin and double-dipping on Manos. If that's the sum total of Rhino's sins, they're doing great.
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Post by vanhagar3000 on Aug 20, 2004 20:18:08 GMT -5
Fine. Let's imagine for a moment that they can get four episodes on a disc.. We can, we don't need to imagine. Rhino HAS done it before. |
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Post by vanhagar3000 on Aug 20, 2004 20:35:06 GMT -5
Fine. Let's imagine for a moment that they can get four episodes on a disc. Let's further imagine that this results in no loss of video quality. So, a 24-episode, six disc set. How much do you imagine it would cost? Who would buy it? Only the die-hard fanatics--and under Rhino's current system, they already have us, plus they can hope to make sales to the occasional casual fan or curious newbie. The odds that season sets would sell well enough for all ten to come out are vanishingly small. MST IS a different beast, and it IS different enough that the models that work for other shows probably won't work for it. Even other shows that have similar, cult followings are different, because they're usually heavily plot-oriented and benefit from being seen in order. Season sets make sense for such shows. What little semblence of continuing plot there is in MST is so loose and farcical that any single episode makes perfect sense by itself. I just don't see what the huge problem is with the current system. We're getting many episodes a year, from a variety of seasons (what if Rhino puts out nothing in 2005 but a Season 4 boxset, and I prefer Mike?). The only concrete complaints I've heard are a poor transfer on Merlin and double-dipping on Manos. If that's the sum total of Rhino's sins, they're doing great. I said MST3K is a different beast. But not that different. It may be funnier, but other than a few things it's not that different. I don't see how it could be that much more in price. So what if it doesn't draw in that many casual fans, it isn't drawing in that many casual fans as is. The die hard fans would buy, and that's pretty much who is buying now. Okay, so Rhino could get more by ripping us off. But I don't see Fox releasing The Simpsons 4 episodes per box set. I don't see Barry Lydon distributors, cutting up the movie into two discs and double up the price. Rhino is flapjacksing us over, plain and simple. They COULD release Simpsons episodes 4 to 1 set and then get release Season Three in about 7 different box sets and make more money. But did they? NO! Yes, we are getting many episodes per, but we could get more. No, that is not the extent of Rhino's sins and even if that were it, it still is damn bad. Here is a list of more of Rhino's sins -Missing Stinger from 518- Atomic Brain -Wrong episode number on I Accuse My Parents (given 424 'Manos' the Hands of Fate) -Wrong episode number on Skydivers (given season one number) -Joel's face on Mike episode Wild World of Batoman -Joel's theme song during Mike episode menu in WWOB -Joel's face on Mike episode Beginning of the End -Joel's theme song during Mike episode menu in Beginning of the End -Rhino chooses episodes like Hellcats and Hamlet over Public Domain episodes like Santa Claus and Night of the Bloodbeast over and over again. Also this may be the most minor, but it's always JOEL'S head in every episode. I know it's a minor point but it still bugs me. Check out Forrest's Overview on Rhino in the Articles section. He sums it up pretty well IMO. |
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Post by Unsavory on Aug 20, 2004 21:34:21 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with getting 4 eps per set, actually, though I do have a problem when one of those eps is a collection of shorts. That's like 3 eps for the price of 4 in my opinion.
An MST3K episode is a hell of a lot longer than a Simpson's ep, so a collection of MST3K is kinda like getting 12 eps of The Simpsons. There's also less of a market for MST3K, so they need to charge more to make anything.
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Post by Phantom Engineer on Aug 21, 2004 7:29:29 GMT -5
I'm certainly not here to defend Rhino but with all the talk about how much you can fit on a disc one thing needs to be pointed out. Most movie releases are duel layer discs. That's not double sided, duel layer. All the Rhinos I just checked are single layer except Egah wich is duel. That's why it has the uncut movie on the same side. They probably stopped doing duel layer to cut costs. So presumably it would cost them more to put more eps on a disc.
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Post by rusty0918 on Aug 21, 2004 9:09:55 GMT -5
I don't really care much for the mistakes. I know it's troublesome, but I knew that Wild Wild World of Batwoman and Beginning of the End were both Mike episodes when I bought them. They don't bother me too much.
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Post by Udvarnoky on Aug 21, 2004 9:23:08 GMT -5
I'm certainly not here to defend Rhino but with all the talk about how much you can fit on a disc one thing needs to be pointed out. Most movie releases are duel layer discs. That's not double sided, duel layer. All the Rhinos I just checked are single layer except Egah wich is duel. That's why it has the uncut movie on the same side. They probably stopped doing duel layer to cut costs. So presumably it would cost them more to put more eps on a disc. Yes, I believe Egah and Manos (for some reason they gave a layer to the Poopie reel) are the only dual-layered discs (I shoud check Merlin). I wonder if it's for cost issues or otherwise. In any case, Rhino isn't exactly the king of digital video mastering so I think some slack should be cut for them and comparing their efforts to that of major DVD studios is slightly unfair. And again, Rhino cramming more eps on a disc is to their advantage, not ours, especially if they would be single-layered. |
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Post by Udvarnoky on Aug 21, 2004 9:26:36 GMT -5
Maybe if they stopped worrying about THEIR benefit, and started thinking about the CUSTOMER'S benefit, MST fans wouldn't have the ever growing hate fro Rhino. What are you talking about? I just got through saying how putting only one episode per disc is more costly to THEM, and you use it as a means of attack? And I've talked about the cost issues countless times. You just can't compare releasing a show like South Park to MST3K. It's a completely different ballgame altogether. |
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Post by Phantom Engineer on Aug 21, 2004 9:37:21 GMT -5
I'm going to get back to a point I made earlier on another thread concerning DVD quality. It's easy to blame Rhino, and why not but doesn't BBI take any responsibility in checking them before release. Which brings up the question just who is BBI. Possibly just Jim Mallon? I would think someone who worked on a show for that long would take some pride in it and insist on giving them a look before release. I know I would. BBI (Mallon?) owns the rights to MST so it seems they (he?) would have the right to OK them before release. I'm just speculating but it doesn't seem like Rhino could just do what they wanted without some input from BBI. So if you take the opinion that Rhino doesn't care, then maybe Mallon doesn't either.
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