|
Post by Mr. Atari on Dec 14, 2005 15:58:20 GMT -5
For some reason, this is big news this year. The Denver Post ran a cover story about it last week.
What's your take?
Are the religious right just being a bunch of whiners? Or are the secularists bent on attacking Christianity wherever they can find it? Or do you just not care?
Frankly, I have no problem with stores saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. I grew up in a suburb of Chicago that had a high Jewish population, so Hannukah has always been included in my December memories.
But I have a friend whose daughter is being taught the various holiday histories in her first grade class. Hannukah, Ramadan, Kwanzaa, etc. However, for Christmas, they will only talk about Santa, because the teachers have been forbidden to say the name "Jesus" (as if he's not referenced in the very word, "Christmas").
I'm all for including everyone. But to ignore the history of one group is not really multi-culturalism, is it?
Double standard, thy name is tolerance.
|
|
|
Post by doctorz on Dec 14, 2005 16:07:56 GMT -5
I heard about this one. Just more of the religious right trying to bring attention to itself and force others to toe their line.
Christmas as Christ's birthday is very questionable. The only reason it became December 25 was to usurp a Roman pagan holiday called Saturnalia where they worshiped the "undying sun" (geddit?)with festivities and revelry. Some believe Christ's actual birthday is in September.
|
|
|
Post by mummifiedstalin on Dec 14, 2005 16:14:56 GMT -5
The double standard is bad.
But I really don't get the hype against "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings." After all, the point it to keep from being simply stupid if you talk to someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas. So when I hear Bill O'Reilly say that he's going to say Merry Christmas to everyone regardless of what they believe, I wonder how he thinks he's spreading good cheer to, say, Jews. After all, if all Jews told everyone "Happy Hannukha," wouldn't that strike Christians as a bit odd?
|
|
|
Post by LetGoOfItSlappy on Dec 14, 2005 16:16:28 GMT -5
I must agree Mr Atari.....multiculturalism has become learn, teach, celebrate all but the majority.
Look people can say that Christmas is exclusionary all they want but it IS what a majority of people in this country celebrate. Realistically, how can anyone say kids are "harmed" by learning celebrating Christmas in the classroom (ie Christmas party etc) when they are learning about all the other holidays celebrated this time of year. If anyone has a problem with their kid hearing about something they don't agree with in school this time of year, then don't let them go to school that day.
Don't get me wrong I have no problem with people saying "happy holidays"......who cares but I do applaud people like Hastert who are essentially saying "I don't care what you say, it's a Christmas tree, NOT a holiday tree"
|
|
|
Post by Don Quixote on Dec 14, 2005 16:16:29 GMT -5
I agree that 'tolerance' is ususally not so tolerant of certain things.
I have no problem with saying 'Happy Holidays' 'Happy Kwanzaa' 'Happy Hannukah' 'Merry Christmas' etc... If I happen to say 'Merry Christmas' to someone, they are more than welcome to point out that they don't celebrate Christmas. I have no problem with saying "Oh, I'm sorry. Happy Holidays."
I mean, it doesn't bother me that people celebrate other holidays. But it's not fair to assume that people can read your mind and then know which holiday you celebrate. I see it as part of decent public discourse that you treat people in a polite manner. Even if you don't celebrate Christmas, the sentiment is still there when someone wishes you a 'Merry Christmas.'
As a consequence... MERRY CHRISTMAS MESSAGE BOARD!
|
|
|
Post by CBG on Dec 14, 2005 18:16:41 GMT -5
I think we need to get past tolerance, and move on to acceptance.
|
|
|
Post by Cleolanta on Dec 14, 2005 18:31:12 GMT -5
I'll drink to _that_. :)
As for me...well, I'm not really Christian, but I was raised more or less with Christian values and now I celebrate "Christmas" (aka The Winter Holiday--I guess my version is closer to Yule, now) simply because that's the way I was raised and I would _miss_ it if it was gone. I don't believe in all the religious stuff, but I do believe that Jesus, the real guy, was a cool person, and I think that all the peace on Earth, goodwill towards men (and women!) etc, stuff is all good. And giving to others, etc. All of that, I have no problem with.
And I have no problem with the people who _are_ really religious and want to celebrate Jesus's birthday as the main point of the holiday, etc.--as long as they don't get preachy about it and yell at ME for _not_ believing the way they do. That's pretty much my take on _all_ religious people, in fact--I'm down with all of them as long as they're not _obnoxious_ about their beliefs.
You guys know my traditional way of celebrating Christmas from that story I told about it on another thread--my club gets together and has a great big home-cooked dinner, then has a humourous White Elephant Gift Exchange, then we listen to Christmas music on the radio and eat candy while wrapping up presents for our annual Sub for Santa family, then we drive over to their house and deliver the presents and sing them a...holiday song (We don't want to call it a "carol" 'cos Carol is a girl's name and we want this holiday to be all-inclusive!) on the doorstep before we leave. It's very warm and fuzzy and traditional, almost Victorian/Dickensian-era stuff, in fact, and yet I'm not really Christian. So what? I'm enjoying the holiday, and it's a time of year when I do nice things for _other_ people. Surely only the nastiest of buttheads would insist that I stop doing THAT, just on account of my religious beliefs.
I myself was raised _loosely_ with Christian values by a mother who had already pretty much become an agnostic by the time she had me; I grew up with Christmas, Thanksgiving and Easter as just de rigeur holidays and even went to Sunday School for a bit, as a child. (Which I took as an excuse to hear some interesting stories, dress up nice, and eat brownies with my friends...but NOTHING else. Even at age 9, nothing really sunk in and affected my way of thinking. :P) So I do more or less come from the "right" background. At the same time, however, my very first "best friend" was not only a Jewish girl, but a Rabbi's daughter. Yep. They lived downstairs from us in the same apartment building, and when I was around 4 or 5, me and Devorah Shipanski (I probably spelled that wrong) and her little brother Asher were pretty much inseperable. So I was sort of raised with the customs of _two_ religions around me at once. Which I think helped a lot, actually. I think more kids should be exposed to multiple cultures at an early age; it's good for you.
Anyway. Do I have a point with this long rambling post? Er, not much of one, I guess. :P Except that: Since this holiday is supposed to be about _getting along_ with others, even if only for one day, I don't care WHAT you call it or how you celebrate it...as long as you leave me alone to celebrate it the way _I_ wish, as well.
Happy Hogswatch, everybody!
...Notorious
|
|
|
Post by Da Worm Fizzle on Dec 14, 2005 20:54:37 GMT -5
I thought Christmas was all about getting presents, being forced to spend time with relatives, and swallowing the payload of a 9mm. Am I wrong here?
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Engineer on Dec 14, 2005 20:58:50 GMT -5
I think we need to get past tolerance, and move on to acceptance. That's crazy talk.
|
|
|
Post by vanhagar3000 on Dec 14, 2005 22:03:33 GMT -5
Let people do whatever the flapjacks they want. Jesus (no pun intended). As long as it isn't government involved (just because then OTHER people will start bitching), they can do what they want.
|
|
|
Post by goflyers on Dec 15, 2005 0:01:04 GMT -5
The Daily Show had a great bit on it last night. It involved Bill O'Reilly and his Christmas campaign. He wants everyone to say Christmas instead of Happy Holidays and others. However, he asks you to buy stuff from his online "holiday store." He also said that he doesn't believe that saying "Merry Christmas" offends people of other denominations, but he went on to say that saying "Happy Holidays" is offensive to Christians. Talk about a no spin zone....
As for my opinion, I don't really care. Call it whatever. The name doesn't matter at all, it's only the meaning behind the time of year that counts.
|
|
|
Post by Da Worm Fizzle on Dec 15, 2005 0:15:29 GMT -5
And that meaning is: Booze!! Bad Santa has taught us all the true meaning of the season.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Walker on Dec 15, 2005 0:23:49 GMT -5
I don't mind the Happy Holidays routine. I'll say it myself from time to time if I'm unsure. It's when something as basic as a Christmas tree suddenly becomes a holiday tree. It's a Christmas tree and that's all there is to it. Here's an editorial that, while I don't completely agree with, does capture the general essence of my feelings on the topic.
|
|
|
Post by NerdGroupie on Dec 15, 2005 0:50:53 GMT -5
Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah!
|
|
|
Post by losingmydignity on Dec 15, 2005 1:11:09 GMT -5
Santa needs a drink!
|
|