The Christmas Controversy

[mummifiedstalin]

dawormface said:

Wow, that story about the real story of Christmas really gives one pause to think.

Yeah, but it shouldn't be more than pause. It's obviously trying to put the worst spin on everything.

For example, it paints Saturnalia as utterly depraved (mentioning free rape)...which is like describing Christmas morning as a feast of selfishly gluttony in which children destroy packages in a blind rage to consume thoughtlessly like feral creatures.

But I was in a mood for a rhetorical guerrilla action last night, so...

[Mr. Atari]

mummifiedstalin said:

dawormface said:

Wow, that story about the real story of Christmas really gives one pause to think.

Yeah, but it shouldn't be more than pause. It's obviously trying to put the worst spin on everything.

Just a little bit. I especially like the anti-semite angle. It really makes him sound like a nutcase.

I don't think the date mixup or the whole Saturnalia stuff matters a bit. I think it's a smoke screen by people who want to appear clever. Most holidays are placed arbitrarily on the calendar. It's the reason for the celebration that's important: that God would show up as a human to personally take care of man's sin problem. And that he'd do it in such humble circumstances. Take an unmarried, pregnant teenager, and mix a bloody delivery room with a smelly barn.

Last night at our church, I told the story of the "real" Christmas. It was probably the only Christmas sermon in recorded history that used the words "bastard" and "placenta". As C.S. Lewis wrote, "Christianity is the only religion in history that celebrates the humiliation of its God."

All this to say that I don't buy the argument that Christmas was invented to sell cards or a pagan holiday rip-off or even a birthday party on the wrong day. It's much bigger than any of those things, and even if you don't believe the story, don't insult it.

[In_Stereo]

dawormface said:

I have to say, you used too much exaggeration to take many of your points seriously.

Let me just make it clear to everyone, to avoid confusion in future debates, that I tend to use hyperbole and humor frequently when I write something; I am a writer of comedy by hobby. I try to make people laugh at the things I say, but I also hope my readers can see the actual points I'm making by saying funny things, and take those points seriously. I try to be as clear as possible, but I guess it don't always work that way.

There's nowhere in America where you're not allowed to wish people a Merry Christmas, nor is there a job where you can't tell people why they have time off, (although if they don't know already you might want to fire that person because he/she is not in touch with the real world).

My brother is a low-level manager at, oh, some big company, MediConCorpTechCo, I think. The managers were issued a memo from their superiors not to say "Merry Christmas" to the people in their departments and to use something more neutral, like "Happy Holidays." (Incidentally, what the big bosses don't realise is that everyone in my brother's charge is either Irish or Italian, and all Catholic.)

As for singing Christmas carols in school, unless you're a student I don't see why you would care. And even if you were a student you might be happy that you aren't forced to sing! I know I would be.

We're not concerned about "forcing" anyone to celebrate Christmas, we're just concerned with these attempts to suppress the free expression of religion, a constitutionally protected right that should apply in a public school. It's not like I'm telling you anything new; the pledge was under attack, prayer came under attack, even a moment of silence is considered establishment of religion. I refer you once again to Papa Tony Romero.

I don't understand how making people give equal time to all the holidays this time of year is intolerant. It seems to me like some people are trying to make an effort, (though misguided it may be) to be more tolerant. In fact, your post seems to be rather intolerant of gays, non-christians, the government and the ACLU. That seems a little intolerant to me, and that's not nice.

I want to make this perfectly clear: I am not opposed to people who want to celebrate Hanukkah and Kwanzaa and Boxing Day and Festivus and what have you. I just don't think there's any reason those holidays need to be forced onto the rest of us as being more important and more inclusive than another holiday. And before you say that I seem to support forcing Christmas onto people, allow me to show you to my time machine.

Here it is. With this time machine, I can go back in time and change anything about history I want. I'm going to create the following three scenarios, one by one.

1. I'll go back in time to the miracle of the oil and prevent it from occurring.
2. I'll go back to 1965 and prevent Dr. Maulana Karenga from creating Kwanzaa.
3. I'll go back to 1870 and prevent the Grant administration from declaring Christmas a federal holiday.

Which of these three scenarios do you think will have the biggest impact on the holiday season?

There would be no holiday season without Christmas. It's just that simple.

As for Kwanzaa, I wouldn't quibble over it being made up. So are Valentine's Day, Mother's Day, Father's day, and so on. And those "fakey holidays" were made up by card companies simply to give themselves more money. At least Kwanzaa was invented for a noble purpose, (more noble than getting paid at least).

Valentine's Day is the feast day of a Catholic saint; it has been celebrated since the year 496. St. Valentine is the patron saint of lovers, hence the exchange of "valentines." Just getting that straight.

Hell if you want fakey consider that Jesus wasn't even born in December! The holiday existed before the birth of Christ. Christians just co-opted the date from Pagans. So if anybody has a right to get angry it's Pagans, Wiccans and such.

Saying "Yeah, I do it... but you do it too!" is not a defence. If you told a cop that everyone else was speeding, so you're not responsible for doing 80 in a 55, you would be laughed all the way to the bailiff's office.

The matter is that Christians aren't fighting to the death for anything every year, and if they are then they're fighting other Christians, because the other religions just don't give a damn.

It doesn't have to be attacks from other religions, just devil's advocates (literally) like the ACLU or people like Michael Newdow, even biased politicians or activist Supreme Court judges. The fact of the matter is that, no matter how much you want to ignore it or pretend it's not happening or tell me I'm exaggerating, Christianity at large is becoming illegal in this country. It starts with no praying, then no Christmas, then no God in schools, now the ACLU is trying to ban crosses from federal property. I've said it before and I'll say it again: freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

Bumper sticker available from RightWingStuff.com:
"Bigot: a conservative winning an argument with a liberal."

[siamesesin]

Aargh.

While I do appreciate the point that telling employees not to say "Merry Christmas" is stupid, so is the idea that whatever someone says should be offensive.

Having a person like Bill O'Reilly spout this nonsense is nearly as bad as Rush going after people for being gutless and not supporting the war. I wonder how that boil on his bottom is doing? And before I'm called to task about my icon, I just picked it because I laughed myself silly at that clip. It amused me. End of story.

I like giving presents and spoiling people-I like having an excuse for it. I like eating Little Debbie Christmas Trees (who the hell cares what they are?). I mostly dislike Christmas movies based on style and structure, not by subject. Same for the music. I respect the Christians for their reasons to celebrate the holidays, I respect the people who don't. So I let them and enjoy the holidays (all of them) the way I do. I say "Happy Holidays" not to eliminate the Christmas or to be all-inclusive in a knee-jerk reaction. It is just a simplification and a time-saver. (oh, poo, there I go being practical again). When I am wished either "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays", I take it for the spirit and leave it at that. Then again, I've also been told I'm pretty hard to offend.

Isn't that enough? Does that make me evil? Or does it just mean I am exercising my right to common sense?

Or is the point to make everybody mad to compensate for a lack of self-esteem or a fear of the unknown/dissimilar? I don't get it, either way.

Bottom line-there are more important things to worry about. And more things to enjoy in ALL aspects of life than to go after each others' throats about nonsense.

[mummifiedstalin]

instereo said:

The fact of the matter is that, no matter how much you want to ignore it or pretend it's not happening or tell me I'm exaggerating, Christianity at large is becoming illegal in this country.

That's exactly how I feel! I came to that conclusion driving around this weekend with hordes of other people out Christmas shopping, trying like mad not to find a radio station playing Christmas carols, hearing them AGAIN in every shop I went into, passing 8 Christian churches, two of which had just been built in the last year, listening to news about our two-term born-again President negotiating with the vocal majority of Christians in Congress (who, by the way, just appointed two more stolidly Christian Supreme Court nominees). It's only a matter of time...

[siamesesin]

Good point, mumms. This could lead to dancing!

[In_Stereo]

Thoroughly agreed back there, ss.

What? Did I just agree with siamesein? I should go lie down.

[siamesesin]

You agreed with me?!

Maybe it's ME who needs to go lie down!

[Da Worm Fizzle]

And as I rained blows upon his head, I thought to myself, there has to be another way!
And thus was born a Festivus for the rest-i-vus.

[Da Worm Fizzle]

I don't get it, if Christianity is becoming illegal, isn't it because Christians are doing the outlawing? It doesn't matter what their motivation is or who they represent. As for wherever In Stereo's brother works, I can't refute what I don't know. I conceed that they could very well be told not to say Merry Christmas. Are they told not to say "God bless you," when sombody sneezes? How about "Thank God Its Friday"?

Quote:Hell if you want fakey consider that Jesus wasn't even born in December! The holiday existed before the birth of Christ. Christians just co-opted the date from Pagans. So if anybody has a right to get angry it's Pagans, Wiccans and such.



Saying "Yeah, I do it... but you do it too!" is not a defence. If you told a cop that everyone else was speeding, so you're not responsible for doing 80 in a 55, you would be laughed all the way to the bailiff's office.

You'll have to explain that above comparrison to me. I'm afraid it went right over my head.

I won't argue about how Christmas is the most important holiday during this season. Nobody denies that. But I don't understand how that makes a difference in any way.

Rudolph the Red-Nose Reindeer is not a free expression of religion, neither is jingle bells. Except for private, religious schools, the majority of kids are more familiar with the secular Christmas Carols. There is nothing in them that can offend other religions. It sounds like the gov. of Jersey just doesn't want kids to sing in schools. I don't think that kids in elementary school are going to complain about their religion being suppressed because they're not allowed to sing Hark the Herald Angels sing. Junior high students and above might, but then again, kids of that age aren't very likely to take up class time trying to sing, (if there's a singing class that's a whole other story.)
Alright I'm done.

[In_Stereo]

dawormface said:

Rudolph the Red-Nose Reindeer is not a free expression of religion, neither is jingle bells. Except for private, religious schools, the majority of kids are more familiar with the secular Christmas Carols. There is nothing in them that can offend other religions. It sounds like the gov. of Jersey just doesn't want kids to sing in schools. I don't think that kids in elementary school are going to complain about their religion being suppressed because they're not allowed to sing Hark the Herald Angels sing. Junior high students and above might, but then again, kids of that age aren't very likely to take up class time trying to sing, (if there's a singing class that's a whole other story.)
Alright I'm done.

Sorry, let me explain the singing thing; what happened last year was the Maplewood High School choir was forced to cancel their Christmas concert because of this law. There was a big court case that the school lost; it was a big controversy for awhile round these parts. That's more what I'm talking about.

And the cop thing was kind of a bad example, now that I think of it. OK, then, it's like saying to the cop, "I may be speeding... but I saw you parked in a fire zone yesterday!"

[Da Worm Fizzle]

okay, I better understand both points. Canceling the concert seems pretty bogus to me. I don't see the justification in that.

[goflyers]

instereo said:

CHRISTmas... Christ being the operative word. It's our holiday, can we celebrate it, please?

Here in the Democratic state of New Jersey, Queer Eye for the McGreevey Guy passed a law during his term banning any sort of religious celebration in public schools. No nativities. No menorahs. No Kwanzaaaaaaaaaa crap. This is my favourite... no Christmas carols! You can't sing "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" in a New Jersey public school (I swear, I'm not even exaggerating here; there was actually a court case over this recently).

Hmm, well I go to a New Jersey Public School and our choir/band/orchestra concert is this tuesday and we're singing Christmas songs. Also, every year we sing the Hallelujah Chorus. We also sing hebrew songs. I've never heard a fuss about it.

[Mr. Atari]

When I was in high school in Chicago, we played Sleigh Ride every year, does that count?

I got to play the whip.

[Da Worm Fizzle]

I played a lobster in the nativity seen.
Goflyers, you live in philly and go to school in jersey? That's the saddest thing I've ever heard!