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Post by gerswin on Nov 12, 2019 1:53:15 GMT -5
I still wish they'd go back to low-budget and do it in Shout's basement or something with Joel and some no-name comics who aren't looking to making it big in Hollywood. Stream it on Twitch every week and release the DVDs every year for us hardcore fans who are always going to buy.
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Post by Megalon on Nov 12, 2019 13:21:06 GMT -5
Considering how tight-lipped Joel has been about all of this, I don't think Beez was supposed to talk about this yet. The fact that she's "not really in the loop" makes me wonder if she even knew this information wasn't public yet. She probably thought she was repeating already-released information.
In any case, since Beez is out of the loop, there's a small chance that she's mistaken, but I doubt it. All the signs have been pointing this way for a while now. On the off-chance that Joel and Netflix are still "in negotiations," then it's probably less "Hey, are you going to order a Season 13?" and more "Hey, is there any way you can you let us out of this exclusivity contract?"
And I agree with Diet Kolos: Go back to the show's roots and do it for cheap with a dedicated crew. If Mega-Budget MST3k didn't catch fire on Netflix, then it's not going to catch fire anywhere else.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Nov 12, 2019 14:11:46 GMT -5
And I agree with Diet Kolos: Go back to the show's roots and do it for cheap with a dedicated crew. If Mega-Budget MST3k didn't catch fire on Netflix, then it's not going to catch fire anywhere else. Yeah, getting away from the original model of production was a major miscalculation. I was reminded of this old article from around the beginning of the filming of Season 3, where Jim and Joel get into the actual details of how cheap show was to make. Like, dirt cheap. "...making "Mystery Science" costs between $2,000 and $3,000 per episode." "Best Brains wowed the Comedy Channel by producing 13 two-hour programs for about $344,000--approximately one-third the cost of a single "Saturday Night Live" episode." "Best Brains will deliver 24 shows in the coming production schedule, earning approximately $50,000 per show in license fees" Etc. 1 million for 24 episodes. In 2019 money that's ~1.9 million. It cost 5.7+ million for only 14 episodes and they STILL had to fundraise because they came up short on costs. Incredible.
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Post by monkeypretzel on Nov 12, 2019 14:43:39 GMT -5
And I agree with Diet Kolos: Go back to the show's roots and do it for cheap with a dedicated crew. If Mega-Budget MST3k didn't catch fire on Netflix, then it's not going to catch fire anywhere else. Yeah, getting away from the original model of production was a major miscalculation. I was reminded of this old article from around the beginning of the filming of Season 3, where Jim and Joel get into the actual details of how cheap show was to make. Like, dirt cheap.
"...making "Mystery Science" costs between $2,000 and $3,000 per episode."
"Best Brains wowed the Comedy Channel by producing 13 two-hour programs for about $344,000--approximately one-third the cost of a single "Saturday Night Live" episode."
"Best Brains will deliver 24 shows in the coming production schedule, earning approximately $50,000 per show in license fees"
Etc.
1 million for 24 episodes. In 2019 money that's ~1.9 million. It cost 5.7+ million for only 14 episodes and they STILL had to fundraise because they came up short on costs. Incredible.There's clues where the money went, besides the increased costs of a union production. All those big name concept artists Joel mentioned during the Kickstarter needed to be paid for their work. The sets and many props were built in Brooklyn and shipped cross-country to LA. There were prototypes made and abandoned when they couldn't or wouldn't work. Just looking at the entirety of the Season 11 Moon 13 set shows that things were made that were never used - the videos posted before this tour show the same things occurring, on a much smaller scale. Joel is known to need to actually see his concepts in physical reality before deciding if they are usable, and when you're paying other companies to build them for you, the money can disappear quickly. I remember in January 2017, when I first heard that money was a problem for NuMST (Elliot Kalan replying in a private email to a person trying to organize meet-ups before the NYC, Chicago, and LA premieres that the entire main cast and crew couldn't attend all three events because there wasn't money for travel expenses to each for all of them), I thought 'Where the hell did it all go?' We'll never get a straight, honest answer from Joel but it wasn't that he didn't get enough from us and from Netflix, I think it's more that he's just not good at prioritizing where to spend his funds.
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Post by ds_36 on Nov 13, 2019 12:53:21 GMT -5
At least we have resolution on this. I have to guess the show is gone forever now. The Hollywoodized version didn't do too well so it seems unlikely for another network to pick it up. And I don't really think that Joel would want to go back to his Minneapolis (or independent) roots. Well this was a fun experience!
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Post by Diet Kolos on Nov 13, 2019 13:19:04 GMT -5
At least we have resolution on this. I have to guess the show is gone forever now. The Hollywoodized version didn't do too well so it seems unlikely for another network to pick it up. And I don't really think that Joel would want to go back to his Minneapolis (or independent) roots. Well this was a fun experience! On the other hand, this isn't solely a Joel production. His partners at Shout Factory have sunk a great deal of money securing the rights to this and marketing it, and I'm not entirely sure they would be happy walking away from this intellectual property until they've made back all their money.
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Post by kmorgan on Nov 14, 2019 0:03:46 GMT -5
I'll wait for an official word from Joel on this. I mean, the tour is being advertised as Joel's last live tour, not as the last appearance of MST3K. And, even if Netflix decides to bow out, there are still other venues to look into. I'm not going to get cynical just yet.
Besides, I'm feeling somewhat cynical over TROS; I can't handle feeling that way over two favorite franchises.
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Post by mylungswereaching on Nov 14, 2019 12:16:08 GMT -5
Yeah, getting away from the original model of production was a major miscalculation. I was reminded of this old article from around the beginning of the filming of Season 3, where Jim and Joel get into the actual details of how cheap show was to make. Like, dirt cheap.
"...making "Mystery Science" costs between $2,000 and $3,000 per episode."
"Best Brains wowed the Comedy Channel by producing 13 two-hour programs for about $344,000--approximately one-third the cost of a single "Saturday Night Live" episode."
"Best Brains will deliver 24 shows in the coming production schedule, earning approximately $50,000 per show in license fees"
Etc.
1 million for 24 episodes. In 2019 money that's ~1.9 million. It cost 5.7+ million for only 14 episodes and they STILL had to fundraise because they came up short on costs. Incredible.There's clues where the money went, besides the increased costs of a union production. All those big name concept artists Joel mentioned during the Kickstarter needed to be paid for their work. The sets and many props were built in Brooklyn and shipped cross-country to LA. There were prototypes made and abandoned when they couldn't or wouldn't work. Just looking at the entirety of the Season 11 Moon 13 set shows that things were made that were never used - the videos posted before this tour show the same things occurring, on a much smaller scale. Joel is known to need to actually see his concepts in physical reality before deciding if they are usable, and when you're paying other companies to build them for you, the money can disappear quickly. I remember in January 2017, when I first heard that money was a problem for NuMST (Elliot Kalan replying in a private email to a person trying to organize meet-ups before the NYC, Chicago, and LA premieres that the entire main cast and crew couldn't attend all three events because there wasn't money for travel expenses to each for all of them), I thought 'Where the hell did it all go?' We'll never get a straight, honest answer from Joel but it wasn't that he didn't get enough from us and from Netflix, I think it's more that he's just not good at prioritizing where to spend his funds. Joel is a really funny guy but this is a major production and it needs a different skill set. The whole thing ballooned out of control. The credits shouldn't last 10 minutes on an MST3k show. The whole thing felt like too many cooks in the soup. It was good but it felt corporate rather than a small puppet show. The original show was Joel's idea but it was Joel and Jim and Trace and Kevin and a few other behind the scenes that made it come to life. They worked together. Season 11 and 12 felt like Joel got total control. In the early days it was Joel and Trace and a carpenter or two who built the set. It ended up being basic but it worked. They preferred to spend their time in the writers room. But with Joel in charge of everything it ended up getting bigger and bigger. I've said it before but this show needs a new Jim to handle stuff like building sets. They don't need perfect sets. They need Joel to establish a basic look and worry about writing the show. They need the new Jim to handle the day to day stuff. The feeling I had with the original show was that you had maybe 10 people who did everything. Each one had their own duties. Trace and Toolmaster Jeff handled the set, etc. They might hire a carpenter for a day or two here and there. The feeling I had with season 11 is that Joel had his vision. He hired 10 people to make his vision come true. And each of those 10 people hired 10 people plus day to day contractors. But they were hired hands and didn't quite get what Joel wanted so they had to do it three or four times to make it perfect. There was only one guy who really got what was going on and he was stretched too thin.
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Post by BoB3K on Nov 14, 2019 19:54:32 GMT -5
Well, so here it is. Not really a surprise to anyone. I think the last nail will be (my prediction) that there will be a Turkey Day, but it will simply be a marathon shown on Shout! streaming with no new material from Joel or the new cast.
I agree with practically every comment here. Makes you wonder why they didn't just listen to us fans to begin with (*whisper every reboot ever done whisper*, oh right). But anyway, I think the big thing here is DKs point about Shout! As far as I remember reading, I believe they were essentially equal partners with Joel. I can see them telling Joel that they weren't in this for 1.5 seasons that can barely even make 2 blu-ray sets. I don't see why they can't go the RiffTrax route, scale ALL the way back to CC era budget, get some new young willing comics, go back to single operated/acted robots, and start putting out a dozen eps a year straight from Shout!, streaming and hard copy.
Ah well. I like more than a few eps of Season 11, and Jonah was fun.
I will say though that this -- "In fact, there are already plans for a holiday-themed tour in 2020, based on the robots' mockery of 1964's "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians." -- makes me gag. For the love of god, riff people, leave that dead horse to die (?). I've never actually watched ANY of the other versions of SCCtM because I LOVE the original and my family and I have been watching it every Christmas since my kids were old enough to watch MST3K. Oh also, with all due respect, Joel, you can shove your live show tours up your SOL. I mean sure, we all love a live special every now and then. I've been to some of the RiffTrax ones. But live tours DO NOT REPLACE THE SHOW. No live tour could ever make me feel like I do when I sit down on the couch with a beer and a snack, turn down the lights, and fire up an ep of MST3K. Ever.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Nov 14, 2019 20:32:06 GMT -5
Agreed on SCCtM. I HATE when Rifftrax re-does MST films, including this one. I HATED when CT did SCCtM. It's cheap nostalgia-bait. Its lazy and pandering and a sign of creative bankruptcy. And beyond that, the re-riffs are nearly NEVER as good as the original. You're setting yourself up for failure.
And if this was Joel's last tour...and they couldn't get any of the real cast for it...who the hell is gonna be on the Holiday tour?
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Post by Megalon on Nov 14, 2019 21:09:00 GMT -5
Oh also, with all due respect, Joel, you can shove your live show tours up your SOL. I mean sure, we all love a live special every now and then. I've been to some of the RiffTrax ones. But live tours DO NOT REPLACE THE SHOW. No live tour could ever make me feel like I do when I sit down on the couch with a beer and a snack, turn down the lights, and fire up an ep of MST3K. Ever. This is pretty much how I feel too. I have no interest in the live tours. They aren't a substitute for the show, and never will be -- no more so than MST3k-branded key-chains and lunch-boxes.
And speaking of Turkey Day, I'm a little miffed that Tom & Crow are being voiced by people who never voiced them on the show. It reminds me of when the Simpsons producers threatened to fire the whole cast and replace them with cheap alternatives, because THAT would have gone over well. Do Joel/Shout not realize how important the performer is to the role? You can't just get anybody to work the puppet and call it good.
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Post by Megalon on Nov 14, 2019 21:19:53 GMT -5
Agreed on SCCtM. I HATE when Rifftrax re-does MST films, including this one. I HATED when CT did SCCtM. It's cheap nostalgia-bait. Its lazy and pandering and a sign of creative bankruptcy. And beyond that, the re-riffs are nearly NEVER as good as the original. You're setting yourself up for failure. And if this was Joel's last tour...and they couldn't get any of the real cast for it...who the hell is gonna be on the Holiday tour? I think when the current tour was announced, Joel said that Jonah had agreed to do the NEXT tour, so maybe that's the case. But I'm not inclined to believe anything Joel says at this point. He's also the one who told us that a 6-episode season was not a cause for alarm, and would actually lead to faster turn-over. Yeah...
Given what we know now, I think it's far more likely that the current cast jumped ship on the current live tour not because they had other obligations, but because the ship was sinking. They're not going to come back for another tour unless, by some miracle, the ship rights itself (Netflix has a change of heart and orders a full season, etc.).
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Post by Ford Prefect on Nov 18, 2019 14:01:06 GMT -5
Ever since the Netflix era started, I keep seeing comments from old fans about how they need to lower the budget and that this will somehow make the show better. This isn't the 90s though and costs for everything have gone up. Plus they're a union production now and I don't think a lot of potential talent would want to emulate the behind the scenes setup Best Brains had back then. By modern widescreen HD standards, this is still pretty low budget compared to most shows that are being made now. I wonder how low the budget would have to get before people start complaining how they don't look like they're putting any effort into the production? Somehow I doubt the show's new fans have had this line of thought when watching episodes.
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Post by BoB3K on Nov 18, 2019 14:36:15 GMT -5
By modern widescreen HD standards, this is still pretty low budget compared to most shows that are being made now. I'm not sure what this means. You can shoot HD on a mobile phone nowadays. (according to apple you can shoot selena gomez music videos on your phone now.)
Beyond that, I'm sure kit-bashing to make a set and lighting and audio gear has gone up a little, but then everything goes up, it's basic inflation. I am pretty sure that the price of fresh, smart, creative, original comedy hasn't gone up at all.
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Post by mylungswereaching on Nov 18, 2019 15:11:40 GMT -5
Ever since the Netflix era started, I keep seeing comments from old fans about how they need to lower the budget and that this will somehow make the show better. This isn't the 90s though and costs for everything have gone up. Plus they're a union production now and I don't think a lot of potential talent would want to emulate the behind the scenes setup Best Brains had back then. By modern widescreen HD standards, this is still pretty low budget compared to most shows that are being made now. I wonder how low the budget would have to get before people start complaining how they don't look like they're putting any effort into the production? Somehow I doubt the show's new fans have had this line of thought when watching episodes. The money is a symptom not the problem. The old MST3k was a team working together to make the show. The new MST3k is a bunch of individuals writing totally separately and then coming together and hiring a bunch of people who are technically excellent but aren't creative to make it. The show looks like its made by committee because it was.
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