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Post by Diet Kolos on May 12, 2022 21:52:39 GMT -5
I'm not getting into this mess again.
I've articulated my position in depth in other threads on the movie lengths. Spent paragraphs on it when they did the survey and posted it here. Don't blow smoke up my butt with "oh gee, people haven't given any good reasons for why its bad, you're just being negative about the new show".
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 22:04:03 GMT -5
BBI left some movies practically uncut during the cable run - except for the upcoming "Gamera vs. Jiger" (for which they were legally required to keep the film uncut), has Alternaversal left a single film on the new seasons unedited?
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Post by wedestroymyths on May 12, 2022 22:13:52 GMT -5
I don't believe so. I don't really have a strong opinion on the cutting movies issue (normally it doesn't bother me, it has a few times). I'm not sure this comparison really works though, as the show used to use more older films, which tended to be shorter. 70 minute movies are a bit harder to find in the era the show seems to be more interested in mining these days.
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Post by kracker on May 12, 2022 22:15:00 GMT -5
If people cannot articulate a single reason why the show should change its longstanding editing policy now, or why it's unreasonable to be doing it now vs. the first ten seasons, then it simply comes off as not believing the revival series can do anything in good faith or with the quality control of the original series, and skewing the facts based on that assumption. Well its apparently because people want to experience the full plot or in this case lack thereof of a non-sensical movie like Future War AND get robot puppets laying snide commentary over it simultaneously to.. i dunno, save time? Like I said, people dont watch MST3K because they are really hard up about watching Eegah, they can do that on their own and at their own peril. I'm a big fan of the Godzilla movies but im not going to care if they snip a few things out of Godzilla vs Megalon, i have my Criterion blu-ray if i feel like watching it uncut. So im defintely not going to care about movies that very much deserve to be snipped.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 22:40:23 GMT -5
A dismissive attitude towards others' opinions doesn't make your counterargument better or more valid. No one wants "to experience the full plot... of a non-sensical movie like Future War." But I suspect you knew that already when you distorted Bob's words to make your point.
And I say this as someone who really doesn't have a horse in this race: I'm not watching Season 13 and I couldn't even finish half of the 20 Netflix episodes in the years they've been available, so I don't really care what they do with the movies in the new seasons.
I just don't get the point of deliberately misconstruing someone's argument. As Diet Kolos said, this has been discussed at length elsewhere on this board, and it shouldn't be difficult to find a post where Kolos or Bob or someone else explains their side in their own words.
Incidentally, "Godzilla vs. Megalon" is a movie BBI left alone, at least to my memory. In that case, the film was already extensively edited before it ended up in Eden Prairie, MN. The counterargument isn't necessarily that the movie should be uncut, just that the cuts Alternaversal is imposing are arguably more detrimental to the integrity of the films than what BBI did(n't do) to "Godzilla vs. Megalon."
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Post by kracker on May 12, 2022 22:48:25 GMT -5
A dismissive attitude towards others' opinions doesn't make your counterargument better or more valid. No one wants "to experience the full plot... of a non-sensical movie like Future War." But I suspect you knew that already when you distorted Bob's words to make your point. And what of the dismissive attitude towards the majority of those who agree that editing is a thing and just want them to make a good show? rather than change up the show just for the sake of trying to appease everyone in every particular way rather than it actually making the show better? Yeah we cant besmirch the integrity of Santo and the Treasure of Dracula by cutting 10 minutes no one will miss out god forbid
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 23:25:45 GMT -5
And what of the dismissive attitude towards the majority of those who agree that editing is a thing and just want them to make a good show? What dismissive attitude? I can't say I've read every word of every post in this thread (or the other active threads on this sub-forum), but I do skim through them in the morning and before bed. I pay closer attention to what's going on when topics I'm interested in come up (such as the editing discussion since the last page). I can't recall having seen a single post that's dismissive of your opinion on this particular issue, and certainly not just because you don't care how much is removed from the film. But on the other hand, in just the quote above you're alleging that those who don't like how the episodes have been edited are ignorant of the practice of editing (demonstrably false) and want the films unedited at the expense of the quality of the show. That's a crude reinterpretation of an opposing argument, evidently just to elevate your side.
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Post by demoniclambertobava on May 12, 2022 23:30:26 GMT -5
I'm not getting into this mess again. I've articulated my position in depth in other threads on the movie lengths. Spent paragraphs on it when they did the survey and posted it here. Don't blow smoke up my butt with "oh gee, people haven't given any good reasons for why its bad, you're just being negative about the new show". Yes, I've seen you talk about this before. I'm just still not seeing much difference between the standard practice of the original show and this one. By your own admission, IIRC, by the end of the original run they often had the films down to something like 76-80 minutes. (Commercial breaks got longer between 1989 and 1999, which is a part of why this happened at that time, obviously) But nobody called foul or said the show was being lazy or became incomprehensible. And TV has changed since 1999, too, first on terrestrial and then streaming. I'm willing to bet cash money right now that if we still had MST3K Season, let's say, 23 on SyFy today, it would be down to this same runtime. That's the nature of the beast of television today. You claim the current crop of films are incomprehensible when they're cut down to a uniform length; I've never seen a film they've showed turn out be the case in the last 3 seasons. If you feel a certain way that can be valid. But it's just possible it's not an absolute fact (and I have edited professionally, lest we suggest I have fallen off the turnip truck). The broader point, not about you specifically but in general, also just feels opportunistic and like a grudge match against the new show: After 10 seasons of this practice steadily increasing on terrestrial TV, we're going to suddenly claim the new MST3K is butchering films because they've shaved off a couple extra minutes and aren't down to the same microsecond as TV in 1999? I'm sorry, I'm just not buying that. I think if it was RiffTrax we wouldn't hear boo. And I'm not hearing a broad consensus on why it should stop.
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Post by kracker on May 13, 2022 0:10:28 GMT -5
That's a crude reinterpretation of an opposing argument, evidently just to elevate your side. It's not a crude interpretation, it's what it comes down to when we're running out of ways to put it: you're having them riff the uncut movie just to fill a niche desire to experience watching an uncut bad movie like you normally would with your friends AND have your cowtown puppet show at the same time. Not because it will make the show any better. And if they don't give you that, then they are just lazy cookie cutters with an assembly line just to make money. last part, not an interpretation, almost exact words. Furthermore, claiming "Cutting EVERY movie to a standard 70 minutes" and claiming nefarious reasons behind it would also be a crude misinterpretation of things, evidently just to elevate your side. And you have the uncut experience already, its called Rifftrax. That is the thing Rifftrax does. Majority of viewers do not want MST3K to be Rifftrax. they want it to be MST3K. We can see from Rifftrax that riffing the entire uncut movie does not really make it any better but if that's the thing that's important to you though, then Rifftrax is that way. And we keep having to explain, they've edited movies before to fit a running time, not an issue. now its a big deal, because there's always gotta be something, right? Here is Bob's words that I'm supposedly distorting. He wants to sit through a bad movie just for the sake of sitting through a bad movie. That's perfectly fine if that's what you want but that's not what MST3K is. I don't watch MST3K to say i sat through Eegah. If I told my friends I willingly sit through an untouched version of that movie they would think im a crazy person. *I would though personally, prefer no cuts for the simple reason that it's hard to say that "I've sat through / experienced terrible movie X" when you haven't, you've sat through a sanitized streamlined version of terrible movie X.
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Post by BoB3K on May 13, 2022 10:13:54 GMT -5
Here is Bob's words that I'm supposedly distorting. He wants to sit through a bad movie just for the sake of sitting through a bad movie. That's perfectly fine if that's what you want but that's not what MST3K is. I don't watch MST3K to say i sat through Eegah. If I told my friends I willingly sit through an untouched version of that movie they would think im a crazy person. "Hi everybody, welcome to Book Club. I hope you all made it through the goodreads.com synopsis I sent you, cuz man do I have a lot of comments on that sucker!""Man, did you guys hear Janet going on like a lunatic yesterday?! What a kook!" "What was she talking about?" "I dunno, I wasn't really listening."I love how I made a post for side A to calm down with the hyperbole and they used it as a springboard for more hyperbole. And then I even slipped in my actual opinion to show there are actual reasons, and they mocked my reason as not valid because it's obviously inherently crazy. ... Cuz you know, you're crazy to watch bad* movies, unless, like, other people watch them with you, and maybe not ALL of it, yuck no, just some parts, so we can laugh at it more! Ha HA stupid movie, not making any sense. (*I don't actually like bad movies, I like fun cheesy movies, and personally think that sitting around and watching really bad movies for the sole purpose of laughing at them because they are bad is pretty lame. It's one of the reasons I like RiffTrax much less than good old CC MST3K)
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2022 11:38:43 GMT -5
Idk, maybe it's me, but I read a definite condescending attitude from your posts on this issue, kracker. Perhaps that's not your intention, but IMO it comes through in language like "those who agree that editing is a thing" (insulting our intelligence) or "we keep having to explain" (ditto), or "If I told my friends I willingly sit through an untouched version of [Eegah] they would think im a crazy person" (whether intentional or not, the implication being only a deranged lunatic would want to watch said movie without J&tB).
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Post by demoniclambertobava on May 13, 2022 12:18:43 GMT -5
I can't fault people for taking issue with kracker's choice of words if they choose to, but he's not wrong that MST3K has never been about showing these movies uncut, nor about experiencing it unfiltered or unriffed. That has never been the purpose of Mystery Science Theater 3000. I don't think this is remotely debatable, but if someone in this thread wants to argue against that they are welcome to try.
The films on MST been edited since Day 1, and they've increased the editing and cut down the movie runtime gradually, first over the course of the first ten seasons of the classic series as network TV constraints shifted, then again in the 2010s and onward with the revival on streaming where, again, they had a preset runtime to contend with. Now they've chosen to stick by a similarly uniform runtime on the Gizmoplex.
I have failed to see a compelling argument as to why this should stop now on the new MST3K, or why it is suddenly, after ten seasons prior to the revival, unacceptable. If it's just down to "I feel the movies are becoming incomprehensible," fine, it's valid to feel that way - but that is one person's subjective take. It is not an absolute value judgment, and I'd wager that most people watching these seasons don't agree with it.
So it isn't necessarily an inherent, intrinsic truth, but it seems we are expected to treat it as such. Because it's seemingly expected to be taken as a given truth that the new show is lacking in talent, drive and quality control, and that there's no other reason they'd cut the runtime by a few minutes, when MST has already been gradually cutting the runtime for its entire history. To me that entire premise is unfair and intellectually dishonest, and it deserves to be challenged. If someone doesn't like the new series or feels the movies are incomprehensible now, that is absolutely their prerogative. But don't make up one larger set of rules for the old show and another for the new one just because the revival doesn't sit well for you.
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Post by intonyeon on May 13, 2022 12:38:23 GMT -5
The issue with the 5 minute short is what to expect from the rest, are they all going to be varying lengths? In theory, Joel can push out 10 more 3-5 minute shorts, even using 50s commercials as “shorts” and do the Kickstarter Obligation
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Post by Diet Kolos on May 13, 2022 12:41:36 GMT -5
Well then it's a good thing we are all in agreement that we don't want to see these movies totally uncut on the show, because no one has actually been arguing for that. And saying that's simply all we're arguing for and over is a convenient way of dismissing what we've been saying and calling us intellectual dishonest haters, essentially. Masterful gaslighting. Even though I know it won't be read, I'm going to link back to the response to the survey I gave a few weeks ago, laying out my feelings on the cutting down of the movies. Its under the spoiler tag, point #5 "The arbitrary cutting down of the movies" HEREAnd I don't expect anyone that doesn't agree with me to agree with me, but I at least want you to disagree with me because you understand what I'm saying, not what you're misinterpreting it as. This is the LAST thing I'm going to say in defense of this position, because I'm starting to get very annoyed. And beyond this point, it frankly isn't worth my time if my position keeps being willfully misinterpreted for the purposes of strawman attacks and gaslighting.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2022 12:50:29 GMT -5
I can't fault people for taking issue with kracker's choice of words if they choose to, but he's not wrong that MST3K has never been about showing these movies uncut, nor about experiencing it unfiltered or unriffed. That has never been the purpose of Mystery Science Theater 3000. I don't think this is remotely debatable, but if someone in this thread wants to argue against that they are welcome to try. The films on MST been edited since Day 1, and they've increased the editing and cut down the movie runtime gradually, first over the course of the first ten seasons of the classic series as network TV constraints shifted, then again in the 2010s and onward with the revival on streaming where, again, they had a preset runtime to contend with. Now they've chosen to stick by a similarly uniform runtime on the Gizmoplex. There are movies that were riffed essentially uncut (within a few seconds, at least) on the BBI-produced cable iteration of the show. So in that regard, that is something the old show did (even if only occasionally) that the new show hasn't. I agree, however, that the show apparently wasn't designed to be about showing uncut movies. And of course when movies were shown unedited, it was simply because they needed every second of those films to get their show up to full length. It doesn't have to be compelling for you for those opinions and the persons who hold them to be treated respectfully, though. That's what prompted me to speak up to kracker in the first place. I don't think anyone has said you or kracker or anyone else is objectively wrong to claim MST3K wasn't X or Y at any point in its history.
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