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Post by comedyc on May 13, 2022 14:18:38 GMT -5
The reason the show stays around 92 minutes: Future syndication. Episodes need to be roughly the same length for these purposes. That's all, just business.
An interesting note: While Santo is 92 minutes, Robot Wars is 94 minutes, and Beyond Atlantis is almost 97 minutes. That makes Robot Wars and Beyond Atlantis the longest episodes since season three, I believe.
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Post by wedestroymyths on May 13, 2022 15:02:27 GMT -5
Actual runtimes are 52, 54, and 57 minutes without the incredibly long closing credits.
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Post by Diet Kolos on May 13, 2022 15:12:42 GMT -5
Actual runtimes are 52, 54, and 57 minutes without the incredibly long closing credits.
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Post by kracker on May 13, 2022 17:24:48 GMT -5
It doesn't have to be compelling for you for those opinions and the persons who hold them to be treated respectfully, though. That's what prompted me to speak up to kracker in the first place. I don't think anyone has said you or kracker or anyone else is objectively wrong to claim MST3K wasn't X or Y at any point in its history. Ok yet responding to news of a new short with continued mocking over the way MST3K has always done things is totally respectful, not condescending at all. Got it. We're not dismissing anyone's opinion when its been continually responded to for I don't know how long so far here. We respond with actual real reasons and they get dismissed and then mocked. Like I said, we just keep running out of ways to put it. Additionally, we're supposed to be all in agreement that we don't want to see these movies uncut and not arguing about that, yet cutting 10 minutes of fat or questionable content, not plot, out of a movie none of us would watch is this huge deal and turns the movie into a "best-of compilation". I mean, which is it here. Here, same "condescending" argument but so I don't get accused of misinterpreting anyone's words I'll post them here "Its why people tune into Svengoolie and Last Drive-In still. Its FOR the movies. " MST3K is not Last Drive-In, its not a horror-host show. I watch Last Drive-In because I WANT to watch the movie, the movie itself is the draw. Last Drive-In actually shows good horror movies or at least cult bad movies that are entertaining to watch. Last-Drive In doesn't feature the movies MST3K does for that reason. Like I said, you want BOTH the MST3K and Last Drive-In experiences even though MST3K does something fundamentally different. The movies on MST3K aren't entertaining, the robots making fun of them are. But if they can't deliver their best during a boring part, they're going to excise it in the interest of making a solid episode rather than appease someone who values the integrity of Eegah that much. "As a viewer, it gets very hard to follow and WATCH these movies, thus reducing the enjoyment of the episode. The audience needs to connect to the movie to understand WHY its bad, WHY the host/bots are suffering/having fun with it." As someone who constantly discusses bad movies, why they are bad and what even makes a bad movie, Once again, that's not what I tune into MST3K for. We can easily see why its bad even without 10 minutes of boring bits. And we've gotten that experience with Rifftrax and yet Riffrax isn't anymore enjoyable for it. In fact, hearing them having to force out jokes to fill time is just painful and cringe. I don't wanna start watching boring forced riffing in MST3K so I'm going to trust them to do whatever they need to keep the show entertaining instead of turning into Rifftrax.
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Post by dudehitscar on May 13, 2022 19:03:17 GMT -5
A dismissive attitude towards others' opinions doesn't make your counterargument better or more valid. No one wants "to experience the full plot... of a non-sensical movie like Future War." But I suspect you knew that already when you distorted Bob's words to make your point. EXCEPT SEVERAL HAVE SAID IT.. HERE AND ELSEWHERE.. Why are you throwing your weight into this debate if you don't even know the arguments of those you are trying to defend?And I say this as someone who really doesn't have a horse in this race: I'm not watching Season 13 and I couldn't even finish half of the 20 Netflix episodes in the years they've been available, so I don't really care what they do with the movies in the new seasons. Do you think.. just maybe.. you were so quick to make stuff up to provide cover for numst3k cynics because you really didn't like numst3k? I just don't get the point of deliberately misconstruing someone's argument. As Diet Kolos said, this has been discussed at length elsewhere on this board, and it shouldn't be difficult to find a post where Kolos or Bob or someone else explains their side in their own words. Incidentally, "Godzilla vs. Megalon" is a movie BBI left alone, at least to my memory. In that case, the film was already extensively edited before it ended up in Eden Prairie, MN. The counterargument isn't necessarily that the movie should be uncut, just that the cuts Alternaversal is imposing are arguably more detrimental to the integrity of the films than what BBI did(n't do) to "Godzilla vs. Megalon." You brought up a movie that is originally 1 hour and 26 mins and they showed an edited down version as an example of BBI doing what the 'don't edit' crowd wants.. this isn't what the 'don't edit the movies' crowd wants.
There is a lot of nuance between the never edit and pro edit crowds stances.. I'm pro edit but agree with Diet Kolos on mac and me and his stance to try and keep the plot in tact somewhat.
I think calling the new mst3k crew "lazy" is uncalled for... especially among those who enjoy the other riffing projects out there that also edit (rifftrax, mads are back).
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Post by monkeypretzel on May 13, 2022 19:03:23 GMT -5
All of this about "boring parts" and whether they should be edited out of a movie or not..."boring" is a pretty subjective judgement. So is "funny."
I personally would rather see the full movies riffed. But I also understand that's almost always not going to happen, for time, for content, for entirely subjective reasons on the part of the people doing the editing. I accept that is part of watching a riffed movie. All I ask is that the movie is somewhat comprehensible to me as a viewer entirely apart from the riffing. I want to be able to follow whatever plot and characterization exists in the movie so that the riffs make sense in context. I want the riffing to be based on what is happening in the movie, what appears onscreen, what the dialogue says.
I guess I'm different from most fans in that yeah, I think most riffed movies ARE entertaining to some extent WITHOUT riffing. The riffing should ADD to the movie watching experience. If the movie is truly unwatchable, then no matter how great the riffing is, I'm not interested, and to me, there are very, very very few truly unwatchable movies. Again, this is probably personal to me, because I don't get bored, ever, when I'm actively watching something I choose to watch. It's very hard for me to understand the mindset that any given movie has to be edited down to cut out the boring parts, because...there aren't really any boring parts, even in "bad" movies. There might be parts that are slow, or have no action, or don't advance the plot, but the people who made the movies put those parts there for a reason, even if it was just padding. If it is just padding, that's where a lot of humor comes in for me, laughing thinking about the chain of bad decisions that might have lead to those moments.
Sometimes I think the problem is in the attention span different fans have. I think mine might be a lot longer than Kracker's, so what Kracker finds as boring and useless and wants cut, I see as entertaining from my perspective, and I just tried to explain why. Kracker isn't wrong - but neither am I. It's all opinion.
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Post by Shark on May 13, 2022 19:15:40 GMT -5
I liked tonight's new short too.
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Post by dudehitscar on May 13, 2022 19:16:36 GMT -5
The issue with the 5 minute short is what to expect from the rest, are they all going to be varying lengths? In theory, Joel can push out 10 more 3-5 minute shorts, even using 50s commercials as “shorts” and do the Kickstarter Obligation agreed.. 5 min shorts are weak unless it's solid gold and that's the total length of it. That was not the case here. bottomline it's not enough for me to pay for and that is what matters going forward.
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Post by kracker on May 13, 2022 19:20:15 GMT -5
All of this about "boring parts" and whether they should be edited out of a movie or not..."boring" is a pretty subjective judgement. So is "funny." I personally would rather see the full movies riffed. But I also understand that's almost always not going to happen, for time, for content, for entirely subjective reasons on the part of the people doing the editing. I accept that is part of watching a riffed movie. All I ask is that the movie is somewhat comprehensible to me as a viewer entirely apart from the riffing. I want to be able to follow whatever plot and characterization exists in the movie so that the riffs make sense in context. I want the riffing to be based on what is happening in the movie, what appears onscreen, what the dialogue says. hey personally I'd prefer to see the full movie riffed, but that's because I assume if the full movie is riffed, it happens to be gold from beginning to end which mainly is dependent on the actual editing on the part of the filmmaker. But these filmmakers tend to really lack in that department where you don't have important plot and characterization, you have padding and scenes that go nowhere and do nothing, as often would be the case in horrible movies. We're under the assumption that these movies must have these tight and concise scripts where everything is completely necessary and lead to something. If you're going to make the argument that they shouldnt cut 10 minutes off a film where they feel its needed, plot isn't a great one when it comes to these awful movies. seriously, plot? what plot? How were the kids dancing inside the McDonalds actually detrimental to the plot of Mac and Me? I've seen some of these movie uncut, they ain't cutting anything important. and boring/funny, yes very subjective, and that's why I bring up Rifftrax. I mostly find Rifftrax boring for fore mentioned reasons but you may not. Therefore, the solution may be that you would be more of a fan of Rifftrax since they provide what you ask. But if you find them boring, i dont see how MST3K doing the same thing will be that much better. and yeah maybe it is about attention span, i'm sure there are people who didn't think The Batman was too long. But as someone who watches a lot of movies and TV, you notice when things are too long, when a movie doesn't need to be 2-2 1/2 hours, when you're asking why the hell am I watching this pointless plotless scene. Anyway today's new short was "Court Case". 10 mins this time. Nate is a writer again and I guess he was part of the team that did all the shorts. Its an Emily short with a lot of good riffs from Kelsey. Really enjoying the Emily team tackling all the suggestive material.
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Post by dudehitscar on May 13, 2022 19:28:58 GMT -5
All of this about "boring parts" and whether they should be edited out of a movie or not..."boring" is a pretty subjective judgement. So is "funny." I personally would rather see the full movies riffed. But I also understand that's almost always not going to happen, for time, for content, for entirely subjective reasons on the part of the people doing the editing. I accept that is part of watching a riffed movie. All I ask is that the movie is somewhat comprehensible to me as a viewer entirely apart from the riffing. I want to be able to follow whatever plot and characterization exists in the movie so that the riffs make sense in context. I want the riffing to be based on what is happening in the movie, what appears onscreen, what the dialogue says. I guess I'm different from most fans in that yeah, I think most riffed movies ARE entertaining to some extent WITHOUT riffing. The riffing should ADD to the movie watching experience. If the movie is truly unwatchable, then no matter how great the riffing is, I'm not interested, and to me, there are very, very very few truly unwatchable movies. Again, this is probably personal to me, because I don't get bored, ever, when I'm actively watching something I choose to watch. It's very hard for me to understand the mindset that any given movie has to be edited down to cut out the boring parts, because...there aren't really any boring parts, even in "bad" movies. There might be parts that are slow, or have no action, or don't advance the plot, but the people who made the movies put those parts there for a reason, even if it was just padding. If it is just padding, that's where a lot of humor comes in for me, laughing thinking about the chain of bad decisions that might have lead to those moments. Sometimes I think the problem is in the attention span different fans have. I think mine might be a lot longer than Kracker's, so what Kracker finds as boring and useless and wants cut, I see as entertaining from my perspective, and I just tried to explain why. Kracker isn't wrong - but neither am I. It's all opinion. I can only speak for me.. but given my other viewing habits... it's not attention span.. it's that these movies are terrible. I have a lower tolerance for cinematic pain than you. Question: Have you let Trace and Frank know they you would rather they don't edit the films? Have they given an answer on their thoughts on it? I know rifftrax gave an official answer but wondering if Trace and Frank have a stated philosophy on it. Other than obviously choosing short movies to do.
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Post by kracker on May 13, 2022 20:16:35 GMT -5
I can only speak for me.. but given my other viewing habits... it's not attention span.. it's that these movies are terrible. I have a lower tolerance for cinematic pain than you. Actually more that. i watch a lot of movies like The Witch that people have described as stupid or boring. And that I must have a high attention span for them. So yeah, its more that these movies are just awful, not that you just need a reasonable attention span for them
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2022 20:21:06 GMT -5
EXCEPT SEVERAL HAVE SAID IT.. HERE AND ELSEWHERE.. Why are you throwing your weight into this debate if you don't even know the arguments of those you are trying to defend? I'm not trying to defend anyone or even any specific "ideology" about editing; I did not like the language in kracker's post (and subsequent posts) and called him out on it. It seemed provocative and combative, and I already explained that. I acknowledge that, ironically enough, I misconstrued Bob's argument on page 22. (I said, "No one wants 'to experience the full plot... of a non-sensical movie like Future War.' But I suspect you knew that already when you distorted Bob's words to make your point." Bob actually had, essentially, said that. Although kracker added the specific movie.) This discussion would have taken a different course than it has had I gone back and re-read his post before submitting mine. For that and that alone I apologize; I don't regret calling out inflammatory language. Holy moly... speaking of condescending tone and a dismissive attitude... I'll let my words speak for themselves. I replied the way I did for the reasons I've already stated. It was certainly not to "provide cover for numst3k cynics" or even because I dislike the new seasons. Elsewhere in your post you implied that I (?) had called the new staff "lazy." I'm pretty sure I never have. Nor do I hate them or their version of the show. I was greatly disappointed in most of what I watched, yes, but I do not hate it. I'd actually call it "indifference," or maybe "apathy." I definitely don't care enough about it to concoct some sort of conspiracy to defend Bob or any other "numst3k cynic," not even subconsciously. I didn't bring up the Godzilla movie, kracker did. What I did was point out that BBI did not edit the version they received in 1991. Yes, I know that the movie is considerably longer than the version shown on MST3K (at its longest, it's about 81 minutes, not 86), but the version on the tape that BBI riffed on was only about 77-78 minutes. I can't recall anything additionally removed by BBI in the MST episode. If I still had a computer with an editing suite, I'd pull up both the MST version and any of the number of "Godzilla vs. Megalon" VHS tapes I own to directly compare them. (This includes one tape which seems to be from the same master as the broadcast tape BBI used.) But, since I can't do that, you'll just have to trust me on this one. You're right that there is a lot of nuance in this discussion. Case in point: BBI did not edit "Godzilla vs. Megalon" for the MST3K episode -- that it was already edited is, frankly, beside the point. Because, as I fathom it, the typical editing argument against Nu-MST3K here is that Alternaversal is doing too much editing, not that they are showing edited versions. That's an important distinction to make.
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Post by Diet Kolos on May 13, 2022 20:31:17 GMT -5
The issue with the 5 minute short is what to expect from the rest, are they all going to be varying lengths? In theory, Joel can push out 10 more 3-5 minute shorts, even using 50s commercials as “shorts” and do the Kickstarter Obligation agreed.. 5 min shorts are weak unless it's solid gold and that's the total length of it. That was not the case here. bottomline it's not enough for me to pay for and that is what matters going forward. I'll 2nd this.
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Post by kracker on May 13, 2022 21:05:06 GMT -5
Similarly, these live events are pretty weak if they just consist of them showing an old episodes with cast after-banter, especially when they did it better when they had Joel and cast providing the live commentary. At least this time they have Bill Corbett. Also Creature Creator Ken Hall who was talked about on that live commentary livestream. Joel is sick, though, he can't bring up all those questions he wanted to ask him about the puppets.
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Post by floatinginspace82 on May 13, 2022 21:46:55 GMT -5
I am all for editing for time if the movie has padding ( Fire Maidens being a good example but if that was edited the movie would be over in 10 mins max) but I do feel like editing out context or maybe something that would have helped understand a particular scene better as troubling a good editor knows what to cut and what not to cut.
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