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Post by dudehitscar on Mar 6, 2022 11:41:09 GMT -5
As a backer of the first KS, i'd be pissed if all those new bots we paid for just wound up as the private intellectual property of Netflix and got imprisoned in their vault forever for no actual good reason whatsoever. #FreeGrowler #FreeWaverly #NoBotLeftBehind
Live show people: Did they use the door sequence and if so, how were they allowed to do that? I think the issue is they can't reuse footage used in the netflix episodes. So they had to remake the door sequence and shoot a new intro.. that doesn't mean they can't use the bots from the netflix series... I mean we got Andy and his little dog puppet among all the other netflix series characters.
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Post by dudehitscar on Mar 6, 2022 11:47:45 GMT -5
Tim Ryder just confirmed that growler and waverly are in the new episodes.
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Post by BoB3K on Mar 6, 2022 11:54:29 GMT -5
I got a chance to see the opening yesterday, and I thought it was mostly just fine. I thought the doorway sequence was fine. Not as fun as a real miniatures shot, but then this new show is essentially 0% miniatures. The one thing that I couldn't take was Felicia Day. Not to bash her personally, just speaking about what I saw. Her opening song singing was okay but the lip-sync pantomiming was awful, and then the actual Mads host segment was so awful I had to stop watching it. I wonder if Felicia is just not a very good improve / off the cuff actress and just couldn't pull off anything not cringe-worthy in this slipshod process they did.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Mar 6, 2022 11:58:15 GMT -5
Tim Ryder just confirmed that growler and waverly are in the new episodes. So that muddies the waters of what they can/can't use.
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Post by BoB3K on Mar 6, 2022 12:07:42 GMT -5
I think the issue is they can't reuse footage used in the netflix episodes. So they had to remake the door sequence and shoot a new intro.. Yeah, it's probably this. Just the footage, not any IP. When they sold their souls exclusive rights to Netflix, that probably includes any reuse of the actual footage of Season 11 and 12. Also could be that technically when it was just Season 11 they could have but when 12 was paid for by Netflix and the sequence was also in there it became 'owned' by Netflix. Although there is another possibility and after seeing this new season footage the odds are much higher -- it could be like some (many?) have speculated, that Joel blew through almost all the 1st KS money in 'pre-production' and when Netflix "stepped in to help" they essential paid for (and helped with equipment, expertise, etc for) most of the shooting and post-production. Who knows, maybe even with the props themselves. I do know somewhere in pre season 13 / KS 'discussions' I was adamant that Netflix just came in at the very end and then someone, I think majorjoe23, disagreed and pointed out some dates which I went and verified through rereading a bunch of the Season 11 KS comments, and sure enough, he was right-- from the dates posted, it's very possible that they had little to no actual production done when Netflix stepped in to help. My point being that it's possible that all footage and maybe even most props are owned by Netflix even though no IP is.
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Post by kracker on Mar 6, 2022 12:43:04 GMT -5
that 2005 Flash animation mess Is this hyperbole or is the new door sequence really animated? I keep thinking, "It can't be as bad as people are making out," but then I read something like this... It's flat physical moving plates illustrated by Gary Glover, with things like blinking lights. On the full 1080p rewatch, it doesnt look bad really. But it does pale in comparison to the majesty that was the Netflix door sequence. The whole thing about Netflix owning their poopie just raised more questions. If its just the footage, then they can just reshoot the miniatures with slightly different lighting and other changes. Unless they tossed them that is. But that makes more sense, shows do have to get permission for clips ran on previous networks to be used on new shows. Its why you see the "Footage courtesy of.." in the credits. Also if Netflix 'stepped in to help' then make sure the backer money goes to stuff that are reusing at least. And make sure you're not signing the important stuff away in the contract. But it looks like that's really not the case. Still curious if the door sequence was used in the live show. This is all kind of irrelevant since the show needed new intro/bumpers for this new Gizmoplex era of MST3K anyway and you had to have the new door sequence match everything else Gary Glover did for the show. Maybe they just tried this route because they thought Gary Glover could essentially be the set builder and by the time they saw it wasn't quite up to par, it was too late to think about going another route.
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Post by Megalon on Mar 6, 2022 13:09:56 GMT -5
If its just the footage, then they can just reshoot the miniatures with slightly different lighting and other changes. Unless they tossed them that is. I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Depends on how large they were, though. It could also be that the pieces were misplaced, or whoever has them isn't working on the show anymore. There have been cases like that throughout history. When Wagner wanted to revise Tannhauser, for example, it turned out that the original manuscript was in the hands of Brahms, a rival composer (who very kindly returned it, I might add; getting it back was still something of a complication, though). I wonder if they could use one of the older door openings -- KTMA, Comedy Central, or Sci-Fi -- or even mix it up each episode. That sort of goes along with the different hosts concept, and it would make sense for Joel's episode(s) to use one of the door openings from when he was on the show.
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Post by kracker on Mar 6, 2022 13:12:37 GMT -5
I wonder if they could use one of the older door openings -- KTMA, Comedy Central, or Sci-Fi -- or even mix it up each episode. That sort of goes along with the different hosts concept, and it would make sense for Joel's episode(s) to use one of the door openings from when he was on the show. That would be out of the question. That footage is all SD and 4:3. it would look laughably bad spliced into the HD widescreen production.
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Post by dudehitscar on Mar 6, 2022 14:50:53 GMT -5
I am thinking I might make fan edits of the episodes I like..
Swap out the door sequences for the Netflix version and replace the intro theme song.
For jonah I can use the Netflix intro. For Joel it might be fun to use some of his old intros or a combo.
Not sure what to do for Emily though.
I will likely just edit down the mad segments to the absolute essentials.. like announcing the movie.
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Post by dudehitscar on Mar 6, 2022 16:38:07 GMT -5
picture 1 shows the set in full... picture 2 for comparison.. picture 3 is fan edit posted in the official forums.. It got a huge positive response there. Let's hope they take the advice and fix it.
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Post by dudehitscar on Mar 6, 2022 17:01:51 GMT -5
watching the host segments again..
that wrestling bit is a new best of all time reel stuff. Baron is soo damn funny in that.
other ones were passable but nothing memorable. I like the smiley jonah persona he crafted between S11 and 12 but still would like to see some despair built into the situation.. He is still there after a few years and having to endure a whole new season. Just something written in about how he hates his situation but is making the best of it would balance it out better. I think they had a great balance of that in The Gauntlet.
The final host segment with the song has me worried though.. it was a total miss and the song was so generic. I thought it was confirmed that Paul and Storm would be writing songs for S13 like they did for netflix. MST3K needs great songs and that seemed like such a bad choice for the kickoff to the new indie era of MST3K... Felt like it called for a way better song and ending with that would have elevated the episode dramatically.
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Post by dudehitscar on Mar 6, 2022 17:07:26 GMT -5
On the positive side. I like the design of this scene especially how you can see the stars are actually strings of lights. Could use some lighting tweaks though. The colors of the juice are way too washed out and it's too zoomed out. Here is my a mock up of my suggestions.. I posted this in the official forum. Here's hoping they run with it. Attachments:
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Post by comedyc on Mar 6, 2022 23:58:28 GMT -5
I liked it. I felt more like the old school episodes I enjoy the most. And since it's the beta test version, I can't criticize basic things like sound and picture because I know they're not finished yet. Watching the new episode in this form is akin to sitting in the edit bay.
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Post by demoniclambertobava on Mar 7, 2022 0:09:52 GMT -5
Sounds like Tim doesn't even know the details of their contract. But copyright law doesnt work that way and I dont see how they would let that happen and sign off their assets. When they moved to Sci-fi Channel, Comedy Central didn't step in and say 'hey you cant use your iconic doorway sequence you made yourselves'. Also still doesn't answer the question, why cant they make a new intro. The old intro would have definitely clashed with the new show. i mean, what were they using the miniatures for in the bts photos if not to shoot a new intro. Was paying for the release of their assets an option since it would save them that money? questions, questions, questions. Let's take this point by point: - "You can't see how it would happen" that Netflix would own or lay claim to the assets built for the show during the period when they made it. Well, you may not see it but it does absolutely happen, esp with a big corporation which, as others have noted, MST cannot afford to go scrap with in court. Further, MST has remade the intro and doorway sequences many times. Doing so now is not unusual for them. - Why didn't they just refilm a new door sequence the exact same way as before? Maybe because, as Joel said, it would clash with the current very low-budget look of the host segments and intro which, due to COVID, are all being green screened instead of using actual sets. - I loved the bumpers. You loved the bumpers. A lot of people didn't like the bumpers, so maybe that's why they dumped them. Or maybe they'll be back sometime. Either way, you reference "Joel interrupting the show" - no, that is something that's only part of the livestream premiere. It is almost certainly not going to be a part of the actual final episode and final cut, so it's not relevant to a parallel re: the bumpers.
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Post by kracker on Mar 7, 2022 1:18:14 GMT -5
You're late, dude. Issue got laid to rest. Read the conversation first. -Question already got answered. Its the footage that's the issue not the asset of the doorway sequence itself. Shows do have to get permission for footage ran on previous networks to be used on new shows. Its why you see the "Footage courtesy of.." in the credits. And while CC was courteous, Netflix apparently was not. Chances are they tossed the miniatures or they are unavailable so they cant reshoot anyway. -i wasnt talking about the reshooting the doorway sequence, i was talking about the intro, which people arent a fan of. Again, re-read. -we have commercials now but no bumpers. Not just Joel's livestream bits. Argument for no bumpers was there were no commercials. And commercials are probably going to be part of the livestreams from now on. So its the same as when they ran them on CC/SciFi. Commercials when they air, then you have bumpers but no commercials later. And you have to have bumpers because its confusing. People watching were confused whether those live commercials were part of the host segment.
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