Once and for all: Trace vs. Bill

[jjb3k]

Something's been bugging me for a while. I can accept a lot of the cast changes on the show (Josh to Kevin and Frank, Joel to Mike, Frank to Mary Jo, etc.), but one change I just can't warm myself to is the departure of Trace Beaulieu. Bill Corbett is a fine performer, but he can't stack up to Trace in my eyes. Trace brought a sort of playful spirit to his characters that was lost when he left, to be replaced by Bill's acerbic cynicism. I never really liked that - to me, Crow was funnier when he was goofing around with Servo, confidently trying to sell an awful movie script, or just being lovably annoying (the "Is it 11:30 yet?" sketch remains one of my all-time favorite Trace moments). And Dr. Forrester was a brilliantly rich character, whether he was scheming alongside Dr. Erhardt, abusing TV's Frank, or being browbeaten by Pearl. Trace's presence lit up the screen for me - even his voice (and his myriad of celebrity impressions) was pleasing to listen to. When he picked up that puppet, you didn't believe it was a puppet - you believed Crow was real.

Try as he might, Bill never really recaptured that, and Crow became less entertaining in my eyes. Usually, with Bill working the puppet, Crow was a dark, angry, bitter little bot, often wallowing in the slums of seething criticism or self-loathing. He didn't just inadvertently annoy Mike anymore - he took some kind of sadistic pleasure in it. And Servo was no longer part of the lambasted party, either; somehow, he got swept up in the antics too. All too often, the dynamic of the SciFi host segments involved Crow and Servo ganging up on Mike to drive him insane for no real reason. I can't think of any instances in the Comedy Central era where this dynamic was utilized with such malice, and I can only assume that it was Trace's absence and Bill's presence that led to its sudden prominence. Dare I say it, Bill Corbett seemed to suck the fun out of MST3K. Even Crow's voice got nastier under Bill - hard, cold, and patronizing to everyone he meets.

I dunno, maybe it's just me. I see a lot of folks who insist that Bill was far superior to Trace, though they don't really explain why. I figure this thread should offer both sides of the argument a chance to be heard.

[Skyroniter]

As much as I've enjoyed Bill, Trace is Crow.

[mightyjack]

I wont vote because it's impossible. You seriously needed an option for both.

You see I've had the complete and opposite reaction.

While I adore Mike... yeah I'll lean toward Joel in a poll like this.

And it's the duo of Frank and Forrester in a landslide over all the other Mad combos.

But Bill and Trace are impossible for me to separate as Crow. Each bring a unique and valued side to the bot. Each brought treasured memories and copious amounts of laughter.

Bill fans can't explain themselves? I'd argue that till hell freezes over, they have been quite eloquent in their praise. We love his irascible, angry tirades. We like how he'd talk to the movie as if it could actually hear him. We like that naughty edge he gave to the bot.

Trace's Crow was a playful prankster, second to none with hilarious imitation. I love that Crow with every fiber of my being. But equally enjoyed is Bill's short tempered, drama queen (DEBBIE!), easily swayed by the movies influences (Droppy, Getting squashed by stones)... while still maintaining the author/documentarian side (His Documentary on women is still one of the best, biggest laugh out loud moments for me in MSTory)

And, he did NOT -emphatically- suck the fun out of this show. That's just absurd to the Nth degree! (IMHO

[RAD]

Bill. Hands down. Trace was great, but Bill will always be Crow as far as I'm concerned.

[Mod City]

That Bill could pull off the transition as smoothly as he did is amazing. In fact, it only took a few episodes for me to get used to him in the theater. I didn't enjoy him as much in the host segments, though.

But I'm loyal to my first loves. Nobody will ever be Crow the way Trace was. Bill did a great job, but Trace's Crow is the real deal.

[hobbesluigi82]

I'm with Mighty Jack. I can't bring myself to decide on either.

One the one hand - Trace. Trace, to me, was one of the show's main reasons it was a success. Even in KTMA, his Dr. F was hilarious. That just seemed to continue, getting better and better. Even being beaten down by his mother in Season 7, he still shined.

And his Crow...I'm struggling to think of someone who can repeat what someone else said and repeat it in such a hilariously dozy voice. "VE VANT TO ASK YOU SOMEQVESTIONS" from Mr. B Natural is one of my all-time favorite MST3K moments.

But Bill - I don't really notice that much difference. I can watch a Trace ep, then a Bill ep one after the other with no need to adjust. I love Bill's condescending, insultative nature towards the characters in the films, with a more cynical tint to the movies than Bill. Observer has always been one of my favorite Mads..."Raging...Clipart..."

Either way, I just can't decide. Each have their merits.

[happy]

Trace all the way, he made Crow, he grew with Crow, he developed Crow, & eats Bills Crow when it comes to being Crooooow.....
That being said, Bill also was good as Crow, but nothing like Trace...7 Seaons of Crow stands for itself...

[Hugh Beaumont]

Trace. Bill is a great guy, and I seem to laugh the most at his Rifftrax riffs, but he will never be Crow to me, mister. Trace, beyond being the perfect Crow, is phenomenally talented besides. Once season five hit, Crow was sheer MST perfection.

[SOL Stowaway]

mightyjack said:

...Each bring a unique and valued side to the bot. Each brought treasured memories and copious amounts of laughter.

Bill fans can't explain themselves? I'd argue that till hell freezes over, they have been quite eloquent in their praise. We love his irascible, angry tirades. We like how he'd talk to the movie as if it could actually hear him. We like that naughty edge he gave to the bot.

Trace's Crow was a playful prankster, second to none with hilarious imitation. I love that Crow with every fiber of my being. But equally enjoyed is Bill's short tempered, drama queen (DEBBIE!), easily swayed by the movies influences (Droppy, Getting squashed by stones)... while still maintaining the author/documentarian side (His Documentary on women is still one of the best, biggest laugh out loud moments for me in MSTory)

And, he did NOT -emphatically- suck the fun out of this show. That's just absurd to the Nth degree!

rad said:

Bill. Hands down. Trace was great, but Bill will always be Crow as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with all of the above. It may have taken Trace a bit longer than it took Bill to "perfect" Crow, but both of them have given me more laughs than I can count.

However, I voted for Bill. And it isn't just because I grew up with Bill's Crow and had to later adapt to Trace's. To be honest, I greatly prefer Bill's voice...and I love how he used this distinctive voice of his to give Crow an entirely new, "edgy" personality. Heh, I'm smiling right now just thinking about it.

I have to echo what MJ said about Crow's documentary on women. Brilliant. And his video-taped testimony on Mike's behalf, when he was on trial, was the funniest part of the entire episode ("Agent for H.A.R.M.").

I only have one minor complaint about Trace's Crow: mainly during the first few seasons, Crow's voice mildly annoys me every once in a while. As does Kevin's early Servo voice, at times. But this almost isn't even worth mentioning, because I think they're all amazing. It's just a personal preference thing;
Bill's Crow > Trace's Crow.

And I actually like Dr. F and Observer about the same. But I find that Observer tends to make me laugh more.

[Shep]

skyroniter said:

As much as I've enjoyed Bill, Trace is Crow.

My thoughts exactly.

Bill had an impossible act to follow, though he did a great job.

[Katie]

Once again I start a post with saying, theres no point in saying who i voted for, it's a bit obvious who I'm going to go with here.


Let me express, I love Bill as Crow as well, but come on.. it's Trace. TRACE. No one can really top him.. I think somewhere around 90% of the lines I quote and remember most often were delivered by Trace, which I ddint realize til reading a shirt I have, with MST quotes on the back.. and going "oh, I think Trace's Crow delivered most of those." A lot of the points I have have already been covered, Bill's Crow was meaner, and cynicle and always in somewhat of a crappy mood. Which was funny and iinteresting in its own right, but I prefer Trace's slightly dumb, loveable Crow. Bills is loveable too, but I really credit a lot of that to the fact the first 7 seasons, he was so beloved its hard not to adore that mangled gold tupperware reindeer.

Trace also had the advantage of being the main Mad, Dr. F has, and always will be the best character on MST3K for me. Trace brought stuff to that role no one else on God's green earth could have. I don't like host segments after he left very much to be honest, I've never been a huge fan of Pearl. Mary Jo is extremely funny, but the character of Pearl always seemed forced, and just bugged me really. Whereas Dr.F seemed like a real person (insane sounding I know), but he just brought that to the show.. it just worked.

Bill as Brainguy was definitely my favorite Mad from the Sci-Fi era ahnds down, and certain things he did in host segments were hysterical.

So, in no way am I saying I didn't like Bill, I loved Bill as Crow and Brainguy, but Dr. F and Traces Crow still win, easily. At least in my opinion.

[wilson]

hobbesluigi82 said:

I can watch a Trace ep, then a Bill ep one after the other with no need to adjust.

Quite true, and doesn't the 'Crow evolution' belong with a dozen others ? :
Sets / lighting / Servo / Mike / Mads / Doorways , etc ?

It's all part of the wide span, and isn't a delight to have a show where you can choose an ep based on a mood for darker sets Or darker bots ?

While Trace IS Crow , Bill is 49 shades of wonderful .
The host is Joel -=- long live Mike !
and the total count of doorways is . .um . . .30 ?
C'mon, take me thru `em !!

[JoshWay]

Trace.

[samtaco]

Trace IS Crow. But Bill's Crow riffing was awesome.

[braindeadzombie]

Trace. While Bill mastered the art of ripping a movie to shreads in as few words as possible, it's just not as fun as what Trace could do with a few impersonations and a couple of pointless asides.