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Post by KGB on Sept 3, 2007 19:53:46 GMT -5
I think jjb3k summed up my feelings quite well.
Bill's Crow was just a little too cliched a character for me. The "angry, quirky guy who never catches on how cruel and thoughtless he really is" is at its heart one of the stock cliches of American sitcoms. In various forms, its antecedants include Archie Bunker, George Jefferson, Edina (Absolutely Fabulous), Becker, and George from Seinfeld. In other words, it's kind of lazy humor.
Trace, on the other hand, created a character and a personality that was unique and thoughtful. A mean, psychotic character is just a step above physical comedy and Trace's Crow never had to resort to such simplicity. He brought something that was far deeper. Well, for a puppet anyway!
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Post by Blackmarket Jazz on Sept 3, 2007 20:40:22 GMT -5
I wont vote because it's impossible. You seriously needed an option for both. You see I've had the complete and opposite reaction. While I adore Mike... yeah I'll lean toward Joel in a poll like this. And it's the duo of Frank and Forrester in a landslide over all the other Mad combos. But Bill and Trace are impossible for me to separate as Crow. Each bring a unique and valued side to the bot. Each brought treasured memories and copious amounts of laughter. Bill fans can't explain themselves? I'd argue that till hell freezes over, they have been quite eloquent in their praise. We love his irascible, angry tirades. We like how he'd talk to the movie as if it could actually hear him. We like that naughty edge he gave to the bot. Trace's Crow was a playful prankster, second to none with hilarious imitation. I love that Crow with every fiber of my being. But equally enjoyed is Bill's short tempered, drama queen (DEBBIE!), easily swayed by the movies influences (Droppy, Getting squashed by stones)... while still maintaining the author/documentarian side (His Documentary on women is still one of the best, biggest laugh out loud moments for me in MSTory) And, he did NOT -emphatically- suck the fun out of this show. That's just absurd to the Nth degree! (IMHO Exactly!
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Post by troxartis on Sept 4, 2007 16:26:21 GMT -5
Simply put, Trace was on the show longer and contributed more laughs therefore.....I loved Bill's Crow so much by the end, but there was something about the way Trace voiced Crow, in a affectionately geeky and at the same time, genuinely intelligent way. Anyone know what I mean?
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Post by Phantom Engineer on Sept 4, 2007 16:38:50 GMT -5
Simply put, Trace was on the show longer and contributed more laughs therefore.....I loved Bill's Crow so much by the end, but there was something about the way Trace voiced Crow, in a affectionately geeky and at the same time, genuinely intelligent way. Anyone know what I mean? Yes, I do know what you mean.
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Post by ArtCrow on Sept 4, 2007 21:43:58 GMT -5
Ok, as far as Mads go, you've got to give it to Trace as Dr F. Brainguy and Bobo were pretty funny and gave it a damn good try, but you just can't beat Dr F and Frank.
As for Crow, that one's a little tougher. Trace developed the character and really grew the character, and played it brilliantly, so it's hard not to give him the edge. But there was something about the sarcastic tone in Bill's voice when he was riffing the movies that just slew me, in a way Trace never quite did. So I've got to call it a draw on the 2 Crows.
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Post by mummifiedstalin on Sept 5, 2007 1:15:17 GMT -5
Of course Bill's incredibly funny, a great writer/riffer, etc.
But Trace created the character. Bill added a new twist but didn't take him in a drastically new direction. He was already getting snarky and sarcastic in the last half of Trace's tour. I also felt like Trace was willing to give Crow a lot more variety in terms of the character, getting sometimes overly emotional (with his scripts), sometimes sly (like with cheating), and sometimes the regular TV's wise-cracking Crow we all know and love. Bill's Crow was, for the most part, the smart-ass. His character wasn't was wide-ranging as Trace's.
Plus, I give Trace extra points for being part of the team that developed the entire premise of the show, its moods, styles, etc. Bill was wonderful at fitting in to that mould, but he didn't originate it.
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Post by solgroupie on Sept 5, 2007 8:40:19 GMT -5
in a affectionately geeky and at the same time, genuinely intelligent way. Anyone know what I mean? yes, you just described the type of guy i wish i could find. if i could look that first crow up, i'd ask him out - but i think there is someone on this board who would highly object to that! and KGB - i never would have expected to see eddie from AbFab here, but you are right in your observation, sweetie dahlin!
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Post by Roz on Sept 5, 2007 21:23:30 GMT -5
I think both Trace and Bill had wonderful qualities that, as unique performers, they brought to the show.
Trace will always be The Crow T. Robot. He turned that puppet into something you swore had a living breathing soul, and I have yet to see a puppeteer create the kind of life that Trace did. Trace's Forrester, again, you can't beat him. But for me, the energy died a little when Frank left.
Bill, however, did a lovely job filling Trace's shoes as Crow, mostly in the theater because he has such a great voice. I will never be a fan of Brain Guy, though, he just didn't have enough going, and seemed sort of unoriginal, like Bobo. Still, Bill did a good job.
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Post by fanliorel on Sept 6, 2007 14:58:50 GMT -5
I'm not voting, but this is to the OP and those who don't like Bill's Crow because he's too "angry," "lazy," "cynical," and whatever other words you used. First of all, from the perspective of the audience, there was a plot point to this effect. While Mike and the other bots are beings of pure energy on the edge of the universe, Crow is spending 500 years in isolation in the satellite. We find him reading old magazines in 801. I don't know if I can think of a worse hell than being forced to live in the isolation of space for 5 centuries with nothing to do but read crummy magazines! No wonder he's kinda cranky and cynical at times. I thought it made sense. Secondly, from the perspective of the actor(s)...what choices did Bill really have? He was stepping into some huge shoes to fill - Trace was unarguably the biggest player when it came to in front of the camera duties with his 8+ years doing two full time characters. Bill simply could not even attempt to recreate the same Crow that Trace did. Fans would have been even more outraged to see someone try to copy Trace exactly and fail miserably. No one is Trace but Trace. In other words, Bill didn't really have a choice but to branch out and try to make Crow his own unique character. Personally, I think they did a fantastic job with this - Crow is still Crow and has a lot of the same personality traits that the always did, but he's definitely "different" as well. And besides, there are *plenty* of instances in which Crow's demeanor is nearer that of old, with the more whimsical and innocent attitude - it's not like he's a permanent freak-fest of negativity. Hardly. It's only when compared to the old Crow that you'd realize at all that he's somewhat jaded. It just really bugs me to hear such negative words used about Bill's work when he actually was very accomplished at it. The first few episodes his puppeteer work was a little shoddy, but even that came around in no time. Considering what he was stepping in to, I think Bill deserves to be commended, not shot down as some kind of negative, hyper-cynical character who brought death to the show (i can't believe you actually said he "sucked the fun" out of mst3k - do you really believe that?) No, Crow was no longer the quirky and good-naturedly childish character, but rather he matured into a later stage of adolescence - an angsty, late-teen sort of adolescence where he's discovered a naughtier side, but deep down is still the good guy he was when he was younger and more innocent. The fit is perfect, both for what they had to work with, and for real-life chronology of the maturation process. Almost everyone had that teenage phase that Crow seems to be going through. It's obviously what they were going for, and it was pulled off tremendously. Bill Corbett seemed to suck the fun out of MST3K. I could not more vehemently object. He did exactly what he was trying to, and he did it very well. Don't blame Bill for not being Trace (how fair is that?). It's not his fault he had to follow in Trace's footsteps. Considering he was forced to mold his version of Crow around a storied past that he had to live up to, one could argue that Bill was actually the better performer, because he pulled off so successfully what he set out to do in regards to the situation. Whether you prefer Trace to Bill is your opinion. I love them both, as most msties do. But to be knocking on Bill this way doesn't do justice to what he accomplished within his constraints.
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Post by callipygias on Sept 6, 2007 15:42:11 GMT -5
I'm not voting, Whether you prefer Trace to Bill is your opinion. I love them both, as most msties do. But to be knocking on Bill this way doesn't do justice to what he accomplished within his constraints. Me neither. And YAY! I could not love him--Bill--so much, loved I not Trace more. That's purdy.
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Post by MonsterX on Sept 6, 2007 16:07:44 GMT -5
I like both of em!
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Post by Gypsy Attle on Sept 6, 2007 16:50:14 GMT -5
Bill is great but Trace will always be Crow
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Post by jjb3k on Sept 6, 2007 17:22:22 GMT -5
I'm not voting, but this is to the OP and those who don't like Bill's Crow because he's too "angry," "lazy," "cynical," and whatever other words you used. First of all, from the perspective of the audience, there was a plot point to this effect. While Mike and the other bots are beings of pure energy on the edge of the universe, Crow is spending 500 years in isolation in the satellite. We find him reading old magazines in 801. I don't know if I can think of a worse hell than being forced to live in the isolation of space for 5 centuries with nothing to do but read crummy magazines! No wonder he's kinda cranky and cynical at times. I thought it made sense. Secondly, from the perspective of the actor(s)...what choices did Bill really have? He was stepping into some huge shoes to fill - Trace was unarguably the biggest player when it came to in front of the camera duties with his 8+ years doing two full time characters. Bill simply could not even attempt to recreate the same Crow that Trace did. Fans would have been even more outraged to see someone try to copy Trace exactly and fail miserably. No one is Trace but Trace. In other words, Bill didn't really have a choice but to branch out and try to make Crow his own unique character. Personally, I think they did a fantastic job with this - Crow is still Crow and has a lot of the same personality traits that the always did, but he's definitely "different" as well. And besides, there are *plenty* of instances in which Crow's demeanor is nearer that of old, with the more whimsical and innocent attitude - it's not like he's a permanent freak-fest of negativity. Hardly. It's only when compared to the old Crow that you'd realize at all that he's somewhat jaded. It just really bugs me to hear such negative words used about Bill's work when he actually was very accomplished at it. The first few episodes his puppeteer work was a little shoddy, but even that came around in no time. Considering what he was stepping in to, I think Bill deserves to be commended, not shot down as some kind of negative, hyper-cynical character who brought death to the show (i can't believe you actually said he "sucked the fun" out of mst3k - do you really believe that?) No, Crow was no longer the quirky and good-naturedly childish character, but rather he matured into a later stage of adolescence - an angsty, late-teen sort of adolescence where he's discovered a naughtier side, but deep down is still the good guy he was when he was younger and more innocent. The fit is perfect, both for what they had to work with, and for real-life chronology of the maturation process. Almost everyone had that teenage phase that Crow seems to be going through. It's obviously what they were going for, and it was pulled off tremendously. Bill Corbett seemed to suck the fun out of MST3K. I could not more vehemently object. He did exactly what he was trying to, and he did it very well. Don't blame Bill for not being Trace (how fair is that?). It's not his fault he had to follow in Trace's footsteps. Considering he was forced to mold his version of Crow around a storied past that he had to live up to, one could argue that Bill was actually the better performer, because he pulled off so successfully what he set out to do in regards to the situation. Whether you prefer Trace to Bill is your opinion. I love them both, as most msties do. But to be knocking on Bill this way doesn't do justice to what he accomplished within his constraints. Well, I admit that saying that Bill sucked the fun out of the show was going a little too far. And it's true that nobody could hope to recreate Trace's charm and effervescence as Crow, and Bill did a great job in the role that he recreated for the character. But the fact remains that even in spite of that, I prefer Trace's juvenile, happy Crow to Bill's adolescent, angsty Crow (again, purely my opinion, as you mentioned). This probably just comes from my comparing the two eras of the show and realizing that the Comedy Central era was more about taking a bad experience and making it fun, whereas the SciFi Channel era was more about suffering at the hands of sinister forces beyond your control. I realize that's where the Brains' mindset was at that point in the series (after all the crap they'd gone through with network and movie studio executives, they needed to vent somehow), but I feel that it made for a less entertaining experience overall. Bill's Crow is a factor in the "mean-spiritedness" of the SciFi era, but it's not the only one - Mary Jo played Pearl as a heartless jerk, the dynamic of the host segments changed to make Mike the tormented subject of Crow and Servo's malicious hijinks, and the riffing became less about "This is so bad, it's funny!" and more about "Stupid movie! I hate you! Die, die, die!" That's not what I like about MST3K. Basically, it's not that I have anything against Bill Corbett as a performer or a puppeteer or a comedian - I just have something against the way the show evolved while he was on board, whether or not he had a conscious hand in it. So really, what it boils down to is that I've finally come to terms with the fact that I don't like the SciFi Channel era. At least not as much as I like the Comedy Central era.
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Post by SOL Stowaway on Sept 6, 2007 18:12:13 GMT -5
...Mary Jo played Pearl as a heartless jerk... Whoa. As a Pearl fan, I have to disagree there. Between Pearl and her son, I'd say that Dr. F is more "heartless". It's almost as if Pearl is only half-hearted in her evil ways. Or at least that's the impression I get. She's like an unlovable aunt who manages to avoid being unlikable. And I fully realize that there's no way you'll agree with this.
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Post by KGB on Sept 6, 2007 20:00:41 GMT -5
No, Crow was no longer the quirky and good-naturedly childish character, but rather he matured into a later stage of adolescence - an angsty, late-teen sort of adolescence where he's discovered a naughtier side, but deep down is still the good guy he was when he was younger and more innocent. The fit is perfect, both for what they had to work with, and for real-life chronology of the maturation process. Almost everyone had that teenage phase that Crow seems to be going through. It's obviously what they were going for, and it was pulled off tremendously. See, I think it's just the opposite. I think Trace's Crow was an adult, with the same life-is-passing-me-by insecurities that many other adults can relate to. Yet as an adult he was able to relate to many of the objects of his scorn, and his own insecurities ensured that he never ventured into outright bitterness and calumny. It's often in youth that one projects this me-against-the-world bravado, hurling poison pills at everything that doesn't conform to one's established notions of "cool" and acceptable. Bill's Crow regressed in terms of maturity, and in doing so I think the show itself regressed in terms of maturity. Yes, Bill was in a tough spot, I don't disagree. Perhaps they should have considered coming up with a new character and ditching Crow. Sure it would have rankled many purists, but I think over time it would have won people over. If they had put a different face on Bill's angry character, he'd likely be more acceptable to the mass of hardcore fans. I'm sure it would have gone down better with me.
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