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Post by Diet Kolos on Nov 26, 2023 3:02:12 GMT -5
Just so the main Season 14 thread doesn't get another 100 pages. This seems like a good place to start a new thread.
So. No Season 14. At least not from the campaign they just ran.
Now what? What do they do now? Etc. Discuss.
This is assuming it IS over and they don't pull some last-minute (literally) trickery.,,
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Post by Diet Kolos on Nov 26, 2023 3:03:34 GMT -5
Yes, its officially over.
$2,715,269
18,422 backers
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Post by starschwar on Nov 26, 2023 3:18:23 GMT -5
Retool. Joel retires or becomes less involved with the financial direction of the show. Whittle the cast and crew down to the bare essentials. No more than five cast members, The Movie style - a host, three bots, one Mad. Probably entirely new cast of up and coming nobodies with nothing to lose and everything to gain. They should also comprise the entirety of the writing team. Investigate partnerships for platforms that are not worse than Gizmoplex (so basically, anything other than Peacock) to ease financial burden. Hire a producer who can streamline production. Forget all about backer rewards - the show is the reward. Forget remastering the old episodes, waste of time and money. Backers can see it early, get digital/physical copies or whatever, forget the rest. New crowd funding effort but back on the real Kickstarter. Had this not been an "all or nothing" funding type thing, we'd have had it average out to $450,000 per episode. I can't think of an MST3K episode that looked like it cost even 1/10 of that to make. I know it doesn't work exactly that way, but this show can't possibly be -that- expensive.
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Post by Shark on Nov 26, 2023 7:16:31 GMT -5
I never thought the Gizmoplex would could fully fund everything and I have no problem with Kickstarters, but the the start/stop method of making this show is killing it. New stuff every two or three years is unsustainable. If we were deep into a new season while the fundraiser was happening, I think it would be easier to ask for money to "keep it going" rather than "start it all again".
If they need to have a fire sale and sell props and sets and all remaining bric-a-brac, do it like they did 25 years ago and throw it all on eBay. Get a pot of money from which you can start again.
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Post by dc41 on Nov 26, 2023 10:26:50 GMT -5
I think the fact that this board’s post Showmaker Campaign thread is called Post Mortem and the official board thread is “Let’s Talk About Feelings” kinda tells you all you need to know about the difference in the level of discussion between the two…
Poor dudehitscar brings up well reasoned, rational speculation as to some of the challenges the most recent kickstarter and overall production model faces, only to be shouted down that he’s baselessly speculating (which is what everyone is doing), he’s a horrible because he’s costing people their livelihoods and has to deal with replies such as “I don’t pretend to know their financials, but I guarantee whomever handles it would be more qualified than most of us.”
Taking the last point first, the change of the first tier goal (and explanation), the botched rewards, the going over budget for season 12, lack of content/planning for the Gizmoplex the past 9 months makes it more than fair to question the business decisions that go on.
And as for costing people their livelihoods, a few things - first, if I’m told I’m the new Tom Servo or Crow, I kinda think that’s it and I’m playing that part/character. I don’t recall Star Trek (MST3K’s best analogy, apparently) having Spock played by different actors each week. Joel likes to call out Doctor Who as analogy, but it’s better and more true comparison is The Tonight Show or Late Night, which are host driven programs that derive their tone from the host. The problem, as I see it, is Joel gets bored and wants to change things up because that’s what keeps him interested. And this is at the expense of the show - had Jonah and his Bots been given a chance to establish themselves and develop chemistry after 19 episodes (produced in the circumstances that they were with most of the riffing ADR’d in)? Would you judge the original after the first 20 KTMA shows or season 1 and season 2 through Wild Rebels?
As for livelihoods specifically- this isn’t a full time job for anyone outside Matt, Joel and a handful of folks at Gizmonic Arts - and that’s one of the major issues. Everyone treats this like some vanity project/ weekend gig and it clearly shows.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Nov 26, 2023 10:38:47 GMT -5
As for livelihoods specifically- this isn’t a full time job for anyone outside Matt, Joel and a handful of folks at Gizmonic Arts - and that’s one of the major issues. Everyone treats this like some vanity project/ weekend gig and it clearly shows. And that makes the "we need to pay people a living wage! You're just against fair labor!" arguments less effective. I agree, we should pay people a fair wage. But these people work on this show for a month or 2 every 2-3 years. No one is "living" off MST in this day and age except maybe Matt and Joel (and whatever anonymous Gizmonic Arts people we never see), and even then I assume they each have more stable income elsewhere. MST is a supplement to whatever they're all doing in real life for their actual living wage. If it were their living, they'd be living in a cardboard box with a sign saying "Will riff for food" because its been years since they last got paid. Provide me with a breakdown of how many people you want to employ full-time, for what, and I might be swayed, especially if most of the money goes to actual continual production of the product I'm paying for. But if 75% of the budget goes to keeping Joel and Matt situated in a suburban Philly office for 2+ years after production ends so they can do nothing but doodle and think up new crowdfunders and not ACTUAL production...then we're just funding a hobby and not anyone's living. |
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Post by said43 on Nov 26, 2023 10:59:11 GMT -5
As for livelihoods specifically- this isn’t a full time job for anyone outside Matt, Joel and a handful of folks at Gizmonic Arts - and that’s one of the major issues. Everyone treats this like some vanity project/ weekend gig and it clearly shows. And that makes the "we need to pay people a living wage! You're just against fair labor!" arguments less effective. I agree, we should pay people a fair wage. But these people work on this show for a month or 2 every 2-3 years. No one is "living" off MST in this day and age except maybe Matt and Joel (and whatever anonymous Gizmonic Arts people we never see), and even then I assume they each have more stable income elsewhere. MST is a supplement to whatever they're all doing in real life for their actual living wage. If it were their living, they'd be living in a cardboard box with a sign saying "Will riff for food" because its been years since they last got paid. Provide me with a breakdown of how many people you want to employ full-time, for what, and I might be swayed, especially if most of the money goes to actual continual production of the product I'm paying for. But if 75% of the budget goes to keeping Joel and Matt situated in a suburban Philly office for 2+ years after production ends so they can do nothing but doodle and think up new crowdfunders and not ACTUAL production...then we're just funding a hobby and not anyone's living. I really, really hope they didn’t spend 2 years planning that campaign. That felt more like something you threw together on a weekend while you were hungover. |
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Post by monkeypretzel on Nov 26, 2023 11:19:52 GMT -5
As far as I can find out, there are five people full-time at Alternaversal/Gizmonic arts: Joel, Matt, Lesley Kinzel, Sharyl Volpe the COO according to her LinkedIn, and Michael Oeth, the CEO, whose LinkedIn has a message posted when the fundraiser started that they had been working on said fundraiser for six months.
So. Five people working full-time for six months on the fundraiser (and to be fair, the MST3Kon job) and that's what they came up with.
Huh.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Nov 26, 2023 11:28:06 GMT -5
As far as I can find out, there are five people full-time at Alternaversal/Gizmonic arts: Joel, Matt, Lesley Kinzel, Sharyl Volpe the COO according to her LinkedIn, and Michael Oeth, the CEO, whose LinkedIn has a message posted when the fundraiser started that they had been working on said fundraiser for six months. Six months? Not days? They spent 6 months to craft a budget that could easily be slashed, a small handful of overpriced rewards and a single video? And they were planning it BEFORE the Actor's strike? And STILL couldn't get ANY of the cast to film anything prior? |
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Post by dc41 on Nov 26, 2023 11:31:19 GMT -5
And that makes the "we need to pay people a living wage! You're just against fair labor!" arguments less effective. I agree, we should pay people a fair wage. But these people work on this show for a month or 2 every 2-3 years. No one is "living" off MST in this day and age except maybe Matt and Joel (and whatever anonymous Gizmonic Arts people we never see), and even then I assume they each have more stable income elsewhere. MST is a supplement to whatever they're all doing in real life for their actual living wage. If it were their living, they'd be living in a cardboard box with a sign saying "Will riff for food" because its been years since they last got paid. Provide me with a breakdown of how many people you want to employ full-time, for what, and I might be swayed, especially if most of the money goes to actual continual production of the product I'm paying for. But if 75% of the budget goes to keeping Joel and Matt situated in a suburban Philly office for 2+ years after production ends so they can do nothing but doodle and think up new crowdfunders and not ACTUAL production...then we're just funding a hobby and not anyone's living. This is exactly the conclusion I’ve come to…we’re subsidizing a hobby. I have no idea what Matt does or how he spends his time, but me and 36,000 other ‘people’ are being asked to pay his salary (which again, I have no idea what that is). They may be incredibly organized - they might have started planning this campaign immediately following the previous one ending - but all I have to base my decision on is what I see - which ain’t much and there’s clearly no long term planning. They campaign, then produce, then air then stop and then fundraise (again) it doesn’t work or make sense at all. Maybe they planned to move a lot faster (I suspect they were hesitant to ask for anything- even subscription renewals - before the physical awards went out) but again - this is an entirely self inflicted wound. I backed last time, didn’t care one iota about physical awards (which I forgot I was getting), because I wanted to see the show and looked at it as a pre pass/subscription, but I passed this time - the ask was outrageous. I know enough about TV budgeting and process to know that the numbers were insanely inflated. |
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Post by missionpanic on Nov 26, 2023 11:46:09 GMT -5
I'm looking at the Reddit and seeing people insisting that everything was fine and that it was all out of their hands. I saw the word "incel" thrown around. I'm so glad I don't have an account there or the forums or I'd get banned.
They should have known as season 13 was (slowly) airing that the Gizmoplex wasn't sustainable. They could have started working on the next steps during that time. The Netflix seasons were already almost two years apart, and then when the new season arrives 3 1/2 years later it's spread out from March to December.
It's probably going to come down to Shout Factory, and I can't see them doing anything more than collecting ad revenue from the existing shows. It didn't even hit 3 million.
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Post by ds_36 on Nov 26, 2023 12:10:14 GMT -5
So. Five people working full-time for six months on the fundraiser (and to be fair, the MST3Kon job) and that's what they came up with. I'm probably being too generous but I do think a major problem that created such a poorly run campaign is that they simply didn't consider at all that this would be anything but another record breaking fundraiser so they made no contigencies at all for this situation. They may have had plenty of "Good news we're doing so great!" updates ready to go that were simply never sent out because of the reality. |
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Post by monkeypretzel on Nov 26, 2023 12:13:54 GMT -5
The Official Post Mortem is up at the Showmaker site:
Greetings, backers.
Well, we’ve come to the end of the month, and the end of the Turkey Day Marathon and this campaign.
While we’re incredibly grateful for all of the support, enthusiasm, and encouragement, it’s clear we’ve fallen short of our goal this time.
First, to be clear, please understand that that means that no one will be charged anything, and we will not be collecting anything that you pledged to this campaign , since the agreement was that we’d only collect funds if we reached our minimum goal. No charges will be put on anyone’s credit cards.
Second, and more important, please know that we’re incredibly grateful for all of your input, feedback, concerns and questions, and are thinking about all the suggestions you have made over the past month.
One silver lining is that the continued support for this campaign, and the show, may have opened up some new conversations about potential partnerships and fundraising that could be key in getting the show another season.
We’ll spend some time now exploring those, and working to integrate all of the feedback and suggestions we’ve heard from you, and will follow up again next year, Lord willing and the creek don’t rise, when we’ve had a chance to regroup and have more to share downstream.
For now, whether you pledged or not, please accept our thanks and gratitude for your ongoing dedication and investment in MST3K.
We’re proud that the show continues to mean so much, to so many, and will keep working to figure out a path forward so that we can hopefully continue to #MakeMoreMST3K.
Until then, have a wonderful holiday season, and thanks again for all of your support.
Cheers and Thanks,
Joel and Team MST3K
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Post by dc41 on Nov 26, 2023 12:16:27 GMT -5
So. Five people working full-time for six months on the fundraiser (and to be fair, the MST3Kon job) and that's what they came up with. I'm probably being too generous but I do think a major problem that created such a poorly run campaign is that they simply didn't consider at all that this would be anything but another record breaking fundraiser so they made no contigencies at all for this situation. They may have had plenty of "Good news we're doing so great!" updates ready to go that were simply never sent out because of the reality. I totally, 100% believe they never for one second thought they’d have to really work for it or that they’d come up short. |
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Post by Jenni_S25 on Nov 26, 2023 12:21:53 GMT -5
As far as I can find out, there are five people full-time at Alternaversal/Gizmonic arts: Joel, Matt, Lesley Kinzel, Sharyl Volpe the COO according to her LinkedIn, and Michael Oeth, the CEO, whose LinkedIn has a message posted when the fundraiser started that they had been working on said fundraiser for six months. So. Five people working full-time for six months on the fundraiser (and to be fair, the MST3Kon job) and that's what they came up with. Huh. Hi everyone, I've been over on the official boards (hi dudehitscar!) for awhile, and I've followed along here since Season 13 began showing. I'm glad I've decided to join here and chat with you, because I really don't know how much more of them I can take over there; I'll talk some more about that later.
You and I, monkeypretzel, were thinking along the same lines here. You checked on their full-time people, and I decided to check out IMDB, and see how many on-screen credits they were. I realize there's some overlap here, some people were credited in more than one category and such, but I count 97 different people credited as writers, and 342 listed credits (with some duplicates) for every other title, for a total of 445 on-screen credits, for 33 episodes. I didn't include the "special thanks" category in that count.
Even with the duplication among categories, that's a lot, and there's all the "behind the scenes" people that don't get credits; I think it's definitely safe to say that 500 people (I'm really lowballing that) worked on these 33 episodes.
Those are some big crews for some, what, six to eight weeks per production season?
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