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Post by BobJohnson on Feb 15, 2004 20:06:05 GMT -5
So you don't want a guy who gave us a budget surplus I believe was in the trillions or billlions where you want dubya who has it in trillions of debt. Missle defense? **cough**rehashing Reagans "Star Wars" program**cough**
Anyway, I'll admit that Dem. can be stupid but Rep are just as. I have conservative views too, I don't hate people who are but when you say that Bush was a great president. that's saying Vaccuum tubes are the future. Bush slipped up many times, his last State of the Union he was talking about Saddam praticing "Hitlerism". Sorry, not a word, fascism is better.
Clinton was not great but better IMHO, the Monica Lewinsky thing, though none of the congresses business, was definitely a reputation poisoner.
Lincoln was a slave owner and didn't free the slaves to be a savior, he did to end the darn war!
I rest my case, no President is great, a prez can be good ;D
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Post by cornjob on Feb 15, 2004 20:41:31 GMT -5
Very true, There really hasn't been a great President. (In my lifetime anyway).Okay, being related to a Senator (not saying who) I've learned there a few good politicians.Some Democrats some Republicans.Gore is not one of them.
What does this have to do with anything? Absolutly nothing.I just wanted to say I'm related to a Senator and I still dont know crap about politics.
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Post by Mr. Atari on Feb 15, 2004 21:46:57 GMT -5
Actually, it wasn't Gary, Indiana, it was Tucson, Arizona. On the soundstage Kubrik built for 2001. And JFK wasn't an alien, but his assassins worked for the same government branch that leaked false alien sighting information to stimulate fear in the general populace.
And don't get me started on the Oklahoma City bombing.
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Post by CherokeeJack on Feb 16, 2004 14:42:37 GMT -5
Wow! We've come to an agreement on something. ;D ...and they thought we were gonna get really mad and go off and stomp kittens.
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Post by ash2 on Feb 18, 2004 23:11:21 GMT -5
Bush is a liar. We went to war for the wrong reasons. There were no WMD. Iraq had no terrorists. The war did make Cheney and Bush lots of money. Anything for a dollar. Human life is meaningless to men like Bush.
As for Michael Moore, the man is a genius. Sure his movie was baised. He was trying to make a point. Why on earth would he include anything that didn't support his arguement? He didn't talk to inner city kids because the movie was about kids in the burbs. Of course the cartoon was offensive, it was an exaggeration.
Is anyone saying that things in Moore's movie were untrue? If so I'd like to know what. Because everything was true, even if the truth hurts.
We live in a country where the government uses the media to make us afraid. That's a fact.
As for the 2000 election Bush and his brother cheated in Florida. If you can't see that than you're blind.
I weep for the future of this country.
John
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Post by Mr. Atari on Feb 18, 2004 23:53:23 GMT -5
Actually, we went to war because Hussein was flagrantly in violation of UN sanctions following the 1991 treaty. The WMD were not necessary to justify invasion (although the intelligence claiming they existed sure helped the case). Bush is not a liar, as he was convinced (as was Clinton, by the way) that Saddam had the materials necessary to make WPD.
The man who really blew it on the WMD is CIA Chief, George Tenet- a Clinton appointee, by the way.
If you really think that Bush knew there were no WMD, then knowingly lied to the American public in order to justify a war (that he had plenty of justification for in the first place), and then willingly placed American soldiers at risk in the heart of terrorist networks looking for WMD that he knows aren't there, to only now have the world find out what he knew all along-- that they aren't there, just in time for an election year...well then you must really be smoking something good.
As for the 2000 election, get over your party presuppositions and look at the facts. Jeb Bush (Fla's governor) had nothing to do with the court's decision to accept the precincts' results after dozens of recounts. It was the infamous Katherine Harris (an elected official, not an appointee) that made the final decision, which was then sent before the Florida Supreme Court, whose decision was then ratified by the US Supreme Court. Our government has an amazing amount of checks and balances, and nearly every one was used in 2000 to ensure that no one "stole" the election. And based on those checks and balances and the Constitution, Bush was elected president. Get over it.
As for Michael Moore, I liked Roger and Me. And I liked a lot of TV Nation. Does that count?#nosmileys#nosmileys
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Post by Mr. Atari on Feb 18, 2004 23:58:39 GMT -5
I'll let you take this statement back for free.
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Post by ash2 on Feb 19, 2004 8:42:15 GMT -5
You're spouting your own party's bull$hit Sampo. I find it really hard to believe that our CIA made that big a mistake. Plus if you read the newspapers the CIA pretty much said that they never told Bush anything about WMD in Iraq. When Colin Powell had that vile of "poison" on CNN or whatever, he had already seen a report that disproved what it was he was claiming. We went to war and people died because Bush knew that America was bloodthirsty after 9/11. The thing that really gets me is that everyone pretty much knows this but no one cares because "those towel heads deserved it." Have any of you been to Iraq? My friend has and do you know who he said he was fighting? Teenagers and children. Not organized soldiers, teenagers that just want us out of their towns. When the American tanks roll into town kids jump on top of them and expertly remove any loose items like backpacks that are attatched to the tanks outside.
We've been bombing Iraq since the end of the last war. Iraq had been in violation since then too. Why go to war now?
As far as the Flordia thing I refuse to believe that the one state that has problems just happens to be the one in which one of the candidates brothers is the governor. Call me a crazy conspiracy nut if you want to but I call it common sense.
And don't even get me started on the fact that Bush wants to reverse Roe vs. Wade and outlaw gay marriage.
John
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Post by ash2 on Feb 19, 2004 8:55:37 GMT -5
If you think we went to war because Hussein was a dictator and a bad man then you're the crazy one. America has supported dictators before. There are dictators in Africa right now and I don't think we're going to war with them anytime soon. All America really cares about is the almighty dollar. If a dictator is willing to have free trade agreements with us than we'll find a way to excuse him.
John
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Post by ash2 on Feb 19, 2004 12:04:42 GMT -5
Plus lets talk about the Patriot Act that Bush put through. Under this act innocent American citizens lose their rights. Don't believe me. It happened to my friend, I'll call him Bob.
Bob is a vietnam vet. He was a sniper and the government taught him how to build bombs. When he left the army the government asked to to forget what he had learned but Bob found that kind of hard to do. Bob wrote a book on how to make bombs from household things. This book was prevented from being printed by the government because they don't want the average citizen to be able to resist government oppression.
Anyone, one day after the patiot act was in effect Bob had some plumbing problems so he called a plumber. This plumber happened to be one of these secret patiot act approved spies. When the plumber saw that Bob can some gun powder around the house (which was legal) he reported Bob and Bob was arrested.
Later police found a registered M-16 in Bob's closet (legal) and a copy of his manuscript about bomb making (legal). However, the government decided that Bob must be a terrorist. Luckily Bob had enough money to pay for a lawyer so he is not in jail. However, even though the judge admitted that Bob has done nothing wrong, the government confiscated Bob's M-16 and his manuscript and has guess what? Asked Bob to forget what he knows.
We live in a country where kids can find ways to buy guns and shoot teachers, but an ex vietnam vet is a terrorist if he remembers his military training.
John
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Post by Mr. Atari on Feb 19, 2004 13:08:39 GMT -5
Well, as I don't belong to a party, I'm not sure how I'm doing that. In fact, I believe I'm on record on this very thread saying that I loathe guns, and I think common sense dictates that certain restrictions should be placed on them. I know I may come across as a Republican on these boards, but it's only because it seems that the liberals on this board are the ones saying things that (to me) merit response. I'm actually quite liberal on certain issues.
In fact, there are quite a few things that I'm in stark disagreement with the GOP and Bush about. However, I think that the whole Democrat "Blame Bush" philosophy is a cop-out. It reveals an immense ignorance and misunderstanding of how our government works.
I'm not a fan of the Patriot act, either. But it's more than a little ironic that democrats are complaining about how Bush is imposing "too much government" and taking away our freedoms. Isn't "more government", philosophically, what's distinctive about the Democratic Party? At least that's what my Political Science textbook says.
So ash, you're pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage? More power to you. Roughly half of the population of America agrees with you on the first, and less than half on the second. I, for one, am glad we have a President who doesn't play to polling data on moral issues, but stands by his convictions- whether I agree with them or not. It's a mark of a good leader who is willing to stand by his convictions even if it makes him some enemies.#nosmileys
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Post by Mr. Atari on Feb 19, 2004 13:14:44 GMT -5
Actually, the reason that one state had problems is because it just happened to be the one state that was too close to call. You'd think that if one of the candidate's brothers was governor, and he was influencing election results, that it would be a landslide for that candidate.
But, of course, that's too logical. As I said before, I'm all for conspiracy theories, so-- fight the power bro!#nosmileys#nosmileys
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Post by Mr. Atari on Feb 19, 2004 16:35:23 GMT -5
I almost forgot. This quote. In which you imply Bush had racist motivation for going to war, and also that anyone who supports the war is inherently racist. It's so over the line absurd it's almost offensive.
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Post by ash2 on Feb 19, 2004 17:17:14 GMT -5
Well, as I don't belong to a party, I'm not sure how I'm doing that. In fact, I believe I'm on record on this very thread saying that I loathe guns, and I think common sense dictates that certain restrictions should be placed on them. I know I may come across as a Republican on these boards, but it's only because it seems that the liberals on this board are the ones saying things that (to me) merit response. I'm actually quite liberal on certain issues. In fact, there are quite a few things that I'm in stark disagreement with the GOP and Bush about. However, I think that the whole Democrat "Blame Bush" philosophy is a cop-out. It reveals an immense ignorance and misunderstanding of how our government works. I'm not a fan of the Patriot act, either. But it's more than a little ironic that democrats are complaining about how Bush is imposing "too much government" and taking away our freedoms. Isn't "more government", philosophically, what's distinctive about the Democratic Party? At least that's what my Political Science textbook says. So ash, you're pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage? More power to you. Roughly half of the population of America agrees with you on the first, and less than half on the second. I, for one, am glad we have a President who doesn't play to polling data on moral issues, but stands by his convictions- whether I agree with them or not. It's a mark of a good leader who is willing to stand by his convictions even if it makes him some enemies. I wouldn't even consider myself a "Blame Bush" type. First of all I don't think he's worth it. I think he's just a puppet controlled by Rumsfeld and a lot of other party memebers. The democratic party has a lot of problems right now. I'll be the first to admit that. Too much in fighting. The GOP stands together while the Democrats are divided and conquered. I don't know what textbook you're reading but the democrates are about less government today. Regan was definitely all about more government. Democrats take more of a Jeffersonian view. I don't consider myself pro-abortion, I consider myself pro-choice. I think more people support gay marriage then the media wants to admit. The media is just a tool of the government and big business. When an editor and chief of the New York Times retired he was quoted as saying, "they told us what to print." As far as Bush sticking to his beliefs. I don't believe Bush is really anti-gay marriage. dick Cheney's daughter and the head of Bush's re-election campaign is gay. Also, as far as racism and war. Racism has always been one of the things that governments feed you when they want to go to war. It's a lot harder to go to war when you think about them as being just like you only in a different place. That is not to say that you have to be racist in order to support the war. However, it has been my experience that those people with whom I have talked to who supported the war were racist and/or afraid that if we didn't stike first Iraq was going to blow us up. It just blows my mind that even now no one talks about why the islamic fundamentalists have such a problem with us. Could it be because we threaten their way of life? Just a few centuries ago American ancestors fled to America to get away from religious persecution. However, today there is no where to run. Western culture is everywhere. Americans what the whole world to be just like us democratic and christian. Bush has even tried to ban paganism in America. What happened to seperation of church and state. Oh yeah, it's never existed in America. John
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Post by Mr. Atari on Feb 19, 2004 19:45:40 GMT -5
Cool. I think there is plenty there for us to agree on.
I agree with you that Bush's main problems come more from his dad's buddies than his own beliefs or policies.
And I also agree that it's impossible to deny the religious roots for the current war(s). But I don't think it has so much to do with Islamic fundamentalists in general, just the ones who think homicide through terrorism is honorable. And anyone who thinks that is a threat to society, regardless of faith. But you're right that wisdom dictates we ask the question, "Why do they hate us?"
And I think there is a difference between being opposed to the institution of gay marriage and being anti-gay. I agree with you that Bush is not anti-gay, but he can still oppose gay marriage. After all, governmental approval of a cultural shift of that magnitude is a big deal, and shouldn't be taken lightly.
I guess both parties walk the tightrope of "More government/Less government". It seems to me that the Dems want to enforce more governmental control on my social freedoms (like telling me where my kids have to go to school, what doctor I have to go to, that I can't own a gun, etc), but opposes any control on moral/religious issues (separation of church/state, no prayer in school, abortion, gay marriage, etc). The GOP seems to be the opposite. The tricky question is, "What constitutes a moral issue?" I consider the environment to be a moral issue, and the GOP has really dropped the ball on that.
As for the Iraq war, I think Bush did the right thing, even if some of the reasons were wrong. The US and Iraq have been in a poker game for 10+ years. Bush didn't know if Saddam was bluffing or not. He could have called Saddam's bluff or folded. The one thing he couldn't have done was wait for more cards. He had to make a play, and I think folding would have been disasterous. Well, more disasterous anyway.
What really strikes me as interesting is how both liberals and conservatives blame the media. To liberals, the media is a governmental tool used to blind the citizens. To conservatives, the media is a liberal machine used to undermine family values and spread a liberal agenda. Somehow I think it's got to be somewhere in between.
Anyway, ash. Thanks for a lively debate. No hard feelings from this end. Let's get together for some hamdingers and some Joe Don Baker movies. Groovy.
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