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Post by quinnmartin on Mar 18, 2009 5:31:50 GMT -5
So will this show stand the test of time? Or more specifically, once we know how it all turns out in the end, will it justify watching it again? Or is it based on not-knowing the end? (Like LOST might be.) I think it will. It was never setup, or meant to be, as simply an exercise in setting up mysteries and finally resolving them. We know now who all the Cylons are and we've gotten to Earth, which were always the main "mysteries" of the series, and I for one still enjoy watching earlier episodes. The show can stand on the drama and the characters, and occasionally the action, even if all the mysteries have been revealed. "No Exit" is probably the only episode where the enjoyment of it is almost entirely in the answers it provides. That one will probably not hold up beyond the first viewing. As always, your mileage may vary.
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Post by Mod City on Mar 18, 2009 10:11:15 GMT -5
I also think it will. The overall quality of the production is just too high for it to completely fall flat after all the surprises are out of the bag. You'll never get quite the same magic as you did the very first time it all unfolded in front of you, but I think it will generally hold up on repeat viewings.
When I started a friend on the series, he asked me if there were one theme that sums up the series, what would it be. My response was "will they find Earth," later changed to "what does it mean to be human." After four seasons, I realize now there's more to it than even that. There's so much to enjoy, I can't see it wearing out its welcome. If consumed in sensible moderation, that is.
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Post by quinnmartin on Mar 18, 2009 13:18:42 GMT -5
When I started a friend on the series, he asked me if there were one theme that sums up the series, what would it be. My response was "will they find Earth," later changed to "what does it mean to be human." After four seasons, I realize now there's more to it than even that. I don't know if you'd call it a "theme" exacty, but one of the key ideas of the series always seemed to be that while the show is - on the surface at least - mostly about the human race attempting to survive, it's not enough just to survive. You have to be worthy of surviving. This was setup in Adama's speech during the miniseries: "You know, when we fought the Cylons, we did it to save ourselves from extinction. But we never answered the question, why? Why are we as a people worth saving? We still commit murder because of greed, spite, jealousy. And we still visit all of our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept the responsibility for anything that we've done. Like we did with the Cylons. We decided to play God, create life. When that life turned against us, we comforted ourselves in the knowledge that it really wasn't our fault, not really. You cannot play God then wash your hands of the things that you've created. Sooner or later, the day comes when you can't hide from the things that you've done anymore. " And then hammered home during Resurection Ship Part 2, when Adama asked Sharon why the Cylons had attacked and she answered "You said that humanity had never asked itself why it deserved to survive. Maybe you don't." Then later on in that episode when Adama called off the plan to assassinate Admiral Cain by telling Starbuck "It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving." Throughout the series we've seen the humans struggle with that issue, and then as the show progressed, we've seen the Cylons begin to struggle with that question as well.
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Post by Mod City on Mar 18, 2009 13:48:02 GMT -5
When I started a friend on the series, he asked me if there were one theme that sums up the series, what would it be. My response was "will they find Earth," later changed to "what does it mean to be human." After four seasons, I realize now there's more to it than even that. I don't know if you'd call it a "theme" exacty, but one of the key ideas of the series always seemed to be that while the show is - on the surface at least - mostly about the human race attempting to survive, it's not enough just to survive. You have to be worthy of surviving. This was setup in Adama's speech during the miniseries: "You know, when we fought the Cylons, we did it to save ourselves from extinction. But we never answered the question, why? Why are we as a people worth saving? We still commit murder because of greed, spite, jealousy. And we still visit all of our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept the responsibility for anything that we've done. Like we did with the Cylons. We decided to play God, create life. When that life turned against us, we comforted ourselves in the knowledge that it really wasn't our fault, not really. You cannot play God then wash your hands of the things that you've created. Sooner or later, the day comes when you can't hide from the things that you've done anymore. " And then hammered home during Resurection Ship Part 2, when Adama asked Sharon why the Cylons had attacked and she answered "You said that humanity had never asked itself why it deserved to survive. Maybe you don't." Then later on in that episode when Adama called off the plan to assassinate Admiral Cain by telling Starbuck "It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving." Throughout the series we've seen the humans struggle with that issue, and then as the show progressed, we've seen the Cylons begin to struggle with that question as well. Indeed, that is a thread that has continued to find its way into the series, most notably in the areas you just brought up. "Are we worthy of survival" is one tough question, especially when framed within this story. You could discuss that one all night and still not hammer it down.
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Post by quinnmartin on Mar 18, 2009 14:09:31 GMT -5
Indeed, that is a thread that has continued to find its way into the series, most notably in the areas you just brought up. "Are we worthy of survival" is one tough question, especially when framed within this story. You could discuss that one all night and still not hammer it down. I love how the series has always made the stakes of that question realistically harsh. Kat, in the end, proved herself worthy, yet the choices she made meant her death. When Adama and Rosilyn decided to not steal the election at the end of season, the consequences were catostrophic. When the rebel Cylons decided that they could no longer keep the Centurians as essentially slaves, that led to them almost being completely wiped out. While Baltar continues to scrape by without ever suffering any real consequences. But I think he's starting to realize that survival at any cost leaves a lot to be desired. As Dr. F once said, he's well on his way to dying alone and afraid, secure in the knowledge that no one loves him.
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Post by Mod City on Mar 18, 2009 15:08:56 GMT -5
Indeed, that is a thread that has continued to find its way into the series, most notably in the areas you just brought up. "Are we worthy of survival" is one tough question, especially when framed within this story. You could discuss that one all night and still not hammer it down. I love how the series has always made the stakes of that question realistically harsh. Kat, in the end, proved herself worthy, yet the choices she made meant her death. When Adama and Rosilyn decided to not steal the election at the end of season, the consequences were catostrophic. When the rebel Cylons decided that they could no longer keep the Centurians as essentially slaves, that led to them almost being completely wiped out. While Baltar continues to scrape by without ever suffering any real consequences. But I think he's starting to realize that survival at any cost leaves a lot to be desired. As Dr. F once said, he's well on his way to dying alone and afraid, secure in the knowledge that no one loves him. To bring up another theme – I still have hope for Baltar. I keep waiting for him to have that true epiphany. Maybe it will still happen. Hope has played a role throughout the series, starting with Adama lying about knowing where Earth was to give the fleet something to grasp on to and continuing all the way through to everyone's hopes being positively crushed by the discovery of a bombed-out Earth. It comes up on New Caprica, too, when the Raptor makes contact with the resistance. "Have hope. We're coming for you." The look on Tigh's face when he hears that message is golden.
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Post by quinnmartin on Mar 18, 2009 18:33:51 GMT -5
They're definitely setting up Baltar for a "redemption" ending, with the blunt dismissals that both Caprica Six and Lee gave him, and the flashbacks to Caprica and his father. If the head characters are agents of a "higher power", as he thinks they are and Ron Moore has hinted they are, then I would think we'll see Head Six trying to steer him toward fufilling a crucial role in either helping break the cycle, or help keep it repeating - whichever side the "higher power" is on.
And the way they brought back the Opera House visions clearly suggests that we're going to see whatever that's referring to played out in the finale.
My guess is that he will be go with them to get Hera, and that he will be presented with a final opportunity to redeem himself. Whether he takes it or not, that's hard to say. With most shows, you'd expect him to finally redeem himself and be the one to save the day. But with BSG they don't always like to do the obvious.
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Post by Mod City on Mar 20, 2009 17:34:36 GMT -5
The finale is just a few hours away, but I'm going to be working and won't be able to watch it until at least Sunday night. Hopefully, I won't flip my lid waiting to watch it.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Mar 20, 2009 20:39:16 GMT -5
I'm watching, and I have no idea of whats going on or who anyone is; yet I don't mind.
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Post by Diet Kolos on Mar 20, 2009 22:14:28 GMT -5
I take that back. That was...not...good. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Maybe I just hate vague endings.
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Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
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Post by Torgo on Mar 20, 2009 22:20:19 GMT -5
I thought it was decent. I guessed a lot of things long ago that turned out to be true, right up to that very ending in modern America.
And that epilogue went on forever. It felt like I was watching Return of the King.
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Post by crowschmo on Mar 20, 2009 22:26:48 GMT -5
That was thoroughly unsatisfying. Utter crap.
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Post by quinnmartin on Mar 20, 2009 22:52:27 GMT -5
Best episode yet, plus a highly satisfying ending. I did not think they could pull if off, but holy sh#t.
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Post by spidervodka on Mar 21, 2009 0:28:25 GMT -5
A good ending IMO. And they didn't explain everything so the show still has an air of mystery. And Starbuck's story - wow.
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Post by Mr. Atari on Mar 21, 2009 1:27:34 GMT -5
Loved it, loved it, loved it.
Which was unexpected for me because I hated the last few episodes. Mainly because I thought they were missing the big idea and wandering into needless out-of-character melodrama. But they finally got back to the plot and honored the characters' journeys. It had what all great endings have: a perfect mix of tragedy and hope.
Halfway through the second hour, as they were spreading out across the world, I said to Mrs. Atari, "I keep expecting some new conflict to arise, but I really hope they end on this peaceful note." So when they did, I was very satisfied. In fact, my only criticism of the show was that the final tag (150,000 years later) was unnecessary. It should have ended with the pull-back shot of Adama at the gravesite, and that phenomenal last line of his.
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