|
Post by SOL Stowaway on Oct 20, 2011 19:22:33 GMT -5
I used to love Mike. But ever since I found out that he's a conservative there's always been that question in my mind. Sadly, some of his remarks on RiffTrax have led me to suspect the worst. Let me preface this by saying that I've never downloaded a RiffTrax, but I've watched clips on YouTube and purchased a bunch of their DVDs (plus the Reefer Madness Live! Blu-ray, which I loved).
A couple months ago, I was perusing through the fan-made 'best of' videos on YouTube, and ended up watching clips from The Fifth Element and 300 back to back. I was so offended that I actually wrote RiffTrax (something I rarely do).
In 300, we have Mike saying, "Oh no! It's turning into one of these [scenes]" (read: gay = gross). Which, in and of itself, is simply eyeroll/scowl-worthy. But making being gay the punch line of a joke (also in 300, but I think that was Kevin) and calling an outfit gay (in The Fifth Element) are seriously offensive. So that's why I wrote them back in August.
I really didn't expect this to become a pattern since I hadn't had any such issues with the DVDs/Blu-ray I purchased from them, so I continued to buy them in good faith.
The other day I was watching Plan 9 Live! for the first time and Mike made a comment that actually gave me a case of the trembles (and you have no idea how much I HATE that homophobia still has that effect on me). So the alien guy is wearing a long, purple, flamboyant shirt and says, "I wear the uniform of my country!" And Mike quips, "Homotania!" And that...totally ruined the episode for me. I'll be selling my copy to a homophobic relative.
Look, they made plenty of amusing gay jokes on MST3K, but this one definitely crossed the line. If I'm wearing, say, a basketball jersey and a white guy comes up to me and says, "So how's Blackville treating you?", that would not only be a racist remark, but a cheap, lazy and unfunny joke to boot.
So are comments like these pretty common in their downloadable trax? Does anyone know if Mike's a big ol' bigot? Or is he just ignorant/insensitive?
It's a shame, but I can't continue to support them if comments like these continue.
Oh, and happy Spirit Day, everyone.
|
|
|
Post by TheNewMads on Oct 20, 2011 19:47:54 GMT -5
actually, i've noticed that as well, and i feel like kevin and bill are also making a fair number of off-color/borderline homophobic/racialist riffs. it's a tricky business because the mst3k phenom has always been about playing with that line of what's appropriate vs. not (think maltese men, the bombing ontario song, etc., etc.), which is funny because as i think back on it, in the mst3k days i really feel like trace beaulieu (who i can assure you is a super-lib) took up most of the potentially offensive joke duties, a big part of it being that crow as a character was sorta the most volatile of the main players on the SOL. trace pulled it off with aplomb, if you ask me (although some people are genuinely offended by the canada song, and i REALLY offended someone from puerto rico with the "progress island USA" short once, he DID NOT find that funny). i think a part of it is, the 90s were just generally more PC, after the bush years and the ascendancy of the new right, jokes that flirt with those particular lines of decency don't feel as funny or counter-establishment/subversive anymore, they just feel like you're listening to a bigot.
also, i think you nailed it with "cheap, lazy and unfunny." i still like rifftrax but to me it seems rushed these days, they're not revising or putting as much time into their writing as mst3k did. imagine if the maltese men or canada sketches hadn't been side-splittingly funny? if it's funny you can get away with a lot, but like you say, if they're making homophobic jokes and there's not even any thought that goes into it, that's gonna fall flat.
all that said, as a big lib myself i'm a LITTLE bit hesitant to pin it on mike's alleged conservatism. (and also, i'd be curious to know: where did you hear that he's a conservative?) my impression is that he's sorta a midwestern christian, which is a different animal from, say, a south-will-rise-again type conservative or an ayn-rand libertarian. the biggest vibe i get from mike is that he's mostly politically apathetic but is maybe a social conservative when he takes the time to think about it. but that's a hunch, i really don't have anything to really back that up except the fact that all my theories are always right.
|
|
|
Post by TobyMobias on Oct 20, 2011 22:59:17 GMT -5
So the alien guy is wearing a long, purple, flamboyant shirt and says, "I wear the uniform of my country!" And Mike quips, "Homotania!" And that...totally ruined the episode for me. I'll be selling my copy to a homophobic relative. I'm fairly confident that the joke was less gay-bashing and more that the actor was a very open homosexual. Their style of humor makes fun of everyone: gay, straight, christians, jews, muslims, men, women, children. RiffTrax especially tend to do more blue jokes and really tend to spare no one. Honestly? I think you're digging a wee bit too deep ; )
|
|
|
Post by mummifiedstalin on Oct 20, 2011 23:37:44 GMT -5
A question: would you find those same jokes to be "parodies" of the attitude you describe if the only thing that changed was that you thought Mike was really liberal?
I ask because throughout its run, MST was filled with jokes which could be seen as either anti-feminist (Women drivers!) or parodies of chauvenism. Whether or not you find them offensive depends on the spirit in which you think the joke is meant. I've heard people refer to the same joke as evidence that the writers enjoy making fun of outdated sexist attitudes AND as evidence that they're perpetuating the same stereotypes by making the jokes in the first place.
I've always assumed that everything they do (whether MST, CT, or RT) was tongue in cheek. Bad movies are good for the fans. Low production values in the host segments are the point. And offensive jokes are always satires of offensive jokes (which means that they're wrong AND funny at the same time).
Take Frank's current schtick. I'd say he's likely the most crazy leftist of the bunch. His twitter/facebook feed is filled with extreme liberal bias to the point that it at times ends up being little more than "Christians suck" and "Republicans to a person are terrible people." There's plenty of grist there to be offended by from the opposite stance. But...he also knows that's intentionally playing the liberal version of a bigot, and it becomes something of a self-parody of his own liberalism. I doubt Mike is going that far (or being that intentional), but it's all still happening in a context where there are no sacred cows.
I obviously can't tell you not to be offended; that's impossible. But I do think it's a mistake to believe that any of these versions of what they do secretly harbor a non-ironic "position," whether it's liberal or conservative or whatever. It's also just true that some jokes are funny *because* they're offensive.
|
|
Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
|
Post by Torgo on Oct 21, 2011 3:28:52 GMT -5
That's the impression I've always got from them, mumms. I've always read it as a parody of bigotry instead of actual bigotry.
Kind of in the same ballpark as All in the Family. You can claim Carol O'Connor was a bigot, but it was done for the sake of both a point and a laugh.
|
|
|
Post by JoshWay on Oct 21, 2011 6:27:59 GMT -5
As has been pointed out, Kevin and Bill perform their fair share of gay jokes. The fact that this thread is aimed squarely at Mike alone says a great deal about the ideological assumptions at play here.
With all respect, questioning Mike's character based on a handful of jokes (many that he likely didn't write) smacks more of bigotry than his alleged homophobia.
|
|
|
Post by Zombiejesus on Oct 21, 2011 8:10:25 GMT -5
It's funny you should mention All in the Family. Though Archie Bunker was presented on the surface as an unsavory bigot, he appealed to diehard Nixon supporters as a hero, a brave man standing up for traditional values in the face of Watergate and the unsettling shift toward social liberalism. Likewise, Ned Flanders is presented as a bit of a religious kook, but to conservative Christians his character is often lauded as being an example of uncompromising faith and unwavering goodwill to fellow man. These texts are polysemic. Let's just leave it there.
|
|
Torgo
Moderator Emeritus
-segment with Crow?
Posts: 15,420
|
Post by Torgo on Oct 21, 2011 12:05:56 GMT -5
As has been pointed out, Kevin and Bill perform their fair share of gay jokes. The fact that this thread is aimed squarely at Mike alone says a great deal about the ideological assumptions at play here. With all respect, questioning Mike's character based on a handful of jokes (many that he likely didn't write) smacks more of bigotry than his alleged homophobia. This is very true. In fact in the Christmas Live show there was an entire segment to Mike and Bill giving Kevin a toy dog named "Gaylord." Kevin asked what they were trying to imply and they kind of danced around it comically, but not mean-spirited in any way. If Mike really had trouble with homosexuals, I doubt he would have alluded his long time colleague was one in such a fun spirited manner. I do know Kevin himself doesn't have a problem with homosexuality. In tha Josh and Kevin panel on one of Shout's DVDs (forget which one) Kevin claims that in an interview with a magazine geared toward gays he was told he was an icon in the "bear community." His response was "I don't roll my dice that way, but it's good to know that if I did someone would catch them."
|
|
|
Post by The Mad Plumber on Oct 21, 2011 12:26:39 GMT -5
Torgo's story of Kevin's reaction to the reporter's comment reflects a greater level of patience and tolerance that I myself have, so that has to be admired.
Somebody brought up a thread talking about terrible standup comics. One thing I had to say about characters like Larry the Cable Guy and his redneck cohorts was that they wanted to tell gay jokes of sorts, but they always threw up that defensive preemptive statement saying that they didn't hate gays or weren't homophobic. Just tell the goddamn gay joke, for crying out loud. Even Robin Williams would use the word "n*****" in his comedy act, and you wouldn't hear him say "oh, I'm not a racist" before or after he said it.
Take Steve Martin. He maintains his schtick throughout his entire act. "I was at home ... doing terrible things to my dog with a fork ..." Stay in character. Apologizing for the things you say just deflates the humor. If your act is that you're some redneck in Cabela's hunting gear, then play the goddamn character.
Political correctness has no business in comedy.
|
|
|
Post by TheNewMads on Oct 21, 2011 13:41:11 GMT -5
It's funny you should mention All in the Family. Though Archie Bunker was presented on the surface as an unsavory bigot, he appealed to diehard Nixon supporters as a hero, a brave man standing up for traditional values in the face of Watergate and the unsettling shift toward social liberalism. Likewise, Ned Flanders is presented as a bit of a religious kook, but to conservative Christians his character is often lauded as being an example of uncompromising faith and unwavering goodwill to fellow man. These texts are polysemic. Let's just leave it there. fascinating. reminds me of the story that a lot of conservatives like stephen colbert because they either don't think he's joking, or he's using reverse-reverse psychology.
|
|
|
Post by mrmeadows on Oct 21, 2011 14:20:38 GMT -5
I agree that the "Homotania" line from Plan 9 made me cringe, even as someone who is used to all of the gay jokes from MST3K. It just felt unnecessarily over the top, and borderline hateful. That said, I don't think any of the guys hate anyone (including gay people), and were simply going for a cheap laugh. I think that Rifftrax is guilty of being a bit more immature (perhaps to appeal to a younger audience) than MST3K, but if I were head writer I would have nixed the "Homotania" line.
I am also a big liberal, but despite Mike's conservatism I don't get the impression that he's a hateful person.
|
|
|
Post by mrmeadows on Oct 21, 2011 14:28:13 GMT -5
and also, i'd be curious to know: where did you hear that he's a conservative? my impression is that he's sorta a midwestern christian, which is a different animal from, say, a south-will-rise-again type conservative or an ayn-rand libertarian. the biggest vibe i get from mike is that he's mostly politically apathetic but is maybe a social conservative when he takes the time to think about it. but that's a hunch, i really don't have anything to really back that up except the fact that all my theories are always right. Well, here's the quote from him that pretty much clears things up: Well, let me say this, I read the National Review cover to cover. Check in at Townhall.com every day. Check the Washington Times daily. Listen to Dennis Prager and Michael Medved on a regular basis. Read Mark Steyn with regularity. Read the Weekly Standard. So, yes, I do vote Republican. As the pundit Hugh Hewitt has observed, there are indeed two Americas: Serious America and Silly America. The Democrats seem bent on turning this into Silly America, so I stick with those who wish this to remain Serious America. Of course, this was back in 2004, so not sure if he agrees that Tea Partiers (with their tri-corner hats and misspelled signs featuring "Communist" Obama with a Hitler mustache) represent a "Serious America". Oh, but here's the rest of the quote: Of course, in addition, as angry as it makes me, I check in with the monolithic press: the NY Times, the L.A. Times, the Boston Globe. One thing I can’t do, that makes me just insanely angry, is read my local paper, the Minneapolis Star Tribune, known to many as the Star and Sickle, or the Red Star Tribune.So, what size tri-corner hat do you wear, Mike? ;D
|
|
|
Post by TheNewMads on Oct 21, 2011 16:31:14 GMT -5
wow. i evidently had him pegged all wrong. there must have been a real pregnant vibe between mike and frank C. back in the days. i guess CT is left and RT is right, now. there's just no getting away from the political divisiveness!
so... was MST3k part of "Serious America" or "Silly America," i wonder?
|
|
|
Post by mummifiedstalin on Oct 21, 2011 16:35:54 GMT -5
And, mrmeadows, I know you aren't saying this, but it's always a good thing to remember that you don't have to hate people who disagree with you. ;D
Besides, MST3K isn't straight up political satire. It's cultural satire (when it isn't just having fun). Just because Mike is conservative doesn't mean that Rifftrax secretly harbors a conservative agenda, just like Frank's being on CT doesn't mean that it secretly harbors a fully liberal agenda. (That said, if you want to get mad at them for "disagreeing" with you, a lot of conservatives might get upset with a lot of the jokes in CT's live show. Last weekend, there were jabs at Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann.)
But what bugs me about people secretly hoping that any of this stuff shares their politics (or religion, or whatever) is that it misses the point of being able to laugh at anything, which is a big part of the show. I know that Frank often makes fun of his own positions. And I'm sure that Mike would do in similar situations. The whole point was to deflate any and all sacred cows, and to laugh at themselves as much as they laugh at other people. I'm sure Mike could laugh at a joke made at a conservative's expense just as much as Frank can laugh at a liberal's expense.
|
|
|
Post by afriendlychicken on Oct 21, 2011 16:47:06 GMT -5
Darth Nancy Grace Johnson is right! There, that keeps me from having to say anything. I'm non-political, non-conformist and a skeptic, which means I don't agree with anyone most of the time anyway.
|
|